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P! must be gay.She hasn't proven that she is married with children.

QUOTE And Graham's transformation being different in degree is important! The distance between Graham's positions in Nov, 2018 and Jan, 2019 is *wider* than the difference between, say, Cruz' positions in Nov, 2018 and Jan, 2019. That... certainly matters.[/quote]

I don't agree that it matters. Lot of Republicans have shifted on Trump. Graham has simply done so more than others. I don't see that as proof or even really evidence that he's being blackmailed.

QUOTE All the $#@!ing time. What do you think an NDA is?![/quote]

It's ... an agreement? Entered into voluntarily? Are you saying there's no difference between an NDA and blackmail? And if so wouldn't that make Trump the one getting blackmailed? Forgive me, I'm having trouble keeping up here.

I didn't say Trump doesn't have secrets. I said: since when does he make SECRET THREATS? Subtly is not Trump's strong point. If he has dirt on you, he'll come out and say it.

QUOTE You think that's absurd, and you offer the following reasons:

1) Trump is a loudmouth.
2) If that was true, then Trump has to be blackmailing all the other people who support him.
3) This explanation doesn't explain Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Mitt Romney, or why people hate pineapple on pizza so much.

In exchange you offer this explanation for Graham's switch:

In the three months between the election and inauguration, Graham had a divine inspiration that actually Donald J. Trump is just the greatest president since sliced bead.[/quote]

That's a total strawman of my view and you know it.

Here's what I think.

First, Graham's switch is hardly remarkable. I think he's realized that he actually doesn't disagree with Trump on a single matter of policy. I think the one guy that was keeping him even somewhat grounded, didn't just retire from the Senate, he retired from the planet and is therefore unable to talk any sense to him anymore. I think that now that he's actually spent time with Trump he's gotten sucked in by the personality and flattery and thought, maybe I was too harsh on him, maybe I was just judging him by his reputation, maybe these Democrats really are out to get him. I don't see any evidence that Graham is a smart man or a good judge of character.

I consider the priors. If gay blackmail were a common phenomenon in American politics maybe I'd reconsider. Many politicians have been gay and many of them have been in the closet, but I honestly can't think of any case in my lifetime, at any level of government really, where gay blackmail was attempted, let alone successful.

I ask myself if Trump has a burning need for Graham's approval, specifically. I think no, Graham's silence would have been more than sufficient. Whatever praise Graham is lavishing on Trump, it's of his own free will.

I ask myself if I think Graham is really that concerned about being outed. His sexuality is possibly the worst kept secret in all of politics. He's still very popular at home. He's not one of those overcompensating anti-gay crusaders. I try to picture the meeting where he's threatened "start licking my boots or else this photo gets leaked". I kinda feel his response just might be, "good, $#@! you, I was kinda tired of living like this anyways".

For this theory to work I have to believe that Graham is not only gay, but also goes to bathhouses. I don't have any evidence of that. I'm not just going to assume he does just because he's gay.

I don't dispute Trump is capable of blackmail. But I don't believe he's automatically guilty of everything he's capable of -- not without evidence. And the only evidence here is ... he flip-flopped. God, that is so atypical of a politician, let alone a principled one like Graham.

And the one thing I absolutely don't think Trump could do is keep a scheme like this a secret. If we know anything about Trump, it's not just that he's a criminal, it's that he's a fantastically sloppy one. Him and everyone around him. Again, the worst kept secret in all of DC, and only Trump has actual evidence of it, and he doesn't blab about it on twitter?

Okay, that's doubt times doubt times doubt times doubt ... it's like, doubt to the sixth power. I'm sorry, girl, I think you're imaging what you want to be true.

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Mar 16 2019, 01:11 AM) It's ... an agreement? Entered into voluntarily? Are you saying there's no difference between an NDA and blackmail? And if so wouldn't that make Trump the one getting blackmailed? Forgive me, I'm having trouble keeping up here.

That's a total strawman of my view and you know it.

Lmao "there's no difference between NDA and blackmail" "how dare you strawman me."

Btw that wasn't a strawman, those were the THREE REASONS YOU GAVE telling me that my idea was untenable. I just boiled them down.

And fyi, I never said NDAs were blackmail, I said they were a form of *secretive coercion.* You give people something so they shut up. That's what an NDA is.

Seriously your entire counterargument to me is basically "when a mobster says "shut this guy up" it's not like the guy is being shut up on the mobster's orders."

And here i thought that Cashto counter argument was: career politicians are more preocupied of their survival than they are about any ideological point. But in a way graham is being blackmailed, by his own base: Do not openly critizes the pres or else!

While Romney has constructed a political identity for himself, one that appeal to a group of voters. My guess is that all the flavor there is to Graham is that he's the republican candidate, hence the guy to vote for if you identify yourself with the party which can be replaced by any other Republican political clone.

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Mar 16 2019, 12:28 PM) Lmao "there's no difference between NDA and blackmail" "how dare you strawman me."

Damn we're a couple of tankies. Run out of fascists to fight and the next thing we do is turn on each other. So stereotypically leftist.

You have a strange habit of putting quote marks around modified versions of my words that turn them into something completely different than what I actually said.

I did not put words in your mouth. Not like "between the election and inauguration, Graham had a divine inspiration", which is totally a thing I said, or a charitable or even reasonable interpretation of my position.

I was just asking a question trying to figure out what your point was. I asked when has Trump ever threatened someone secretly. You said, "what do you think an NDA is?" Um: not a threat? Paying someone $130,000 to do something is a really, really weird definition of "coercion". For chrissakes, the role of the person with something to hide and the person gaining something of value is completely flipped around.

They're not even remotely the same thing. And your response, as best as I can tell, is "I know they're not! But the same time, they totally are".

I am going to just assume that if that is the most similar example you can come up with, then you don't have a better one.

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Mar 16 2019, 05:29 PM) Damn we're a couple of tankies. Run out of fascists to fight and the next thing we do is turn on each other. So stereotypically leftist.

Lol

You have a strange habit of putting quote marks around modified versions of my words that turn them into something completely different than what I actually said.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one p1 does this too. I can't call p1 out on this...but if cashto does maybe it holds more water.

Papsmear wrote:QUOTE (Papsmear @ Mar 17 2019, 03:15 PM)

OH @#(!! Pass the popcorn Paps!