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phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 6 2019, 02:41 PM) To me, a democratic government is just an agreement by its citizens to work together to create a society in which everyone has enough to survive. That's pretty $#@!ing leftist and is basically just communism.

This is neither leftist nor communism. Socialism is not "when government does stuff". Socialism is about increased or total worker ownership of the means of production. Communism is about using socialism to achieve a classless society which abolishes inequality between rich and poor. Communism is not synonymous with a welfare state; in fact the modern welfare state goes back to Bismarck who introduced reforms as a mean to undermine the popularity of communism in 19th century Germany.

The idea that the free market doesn't solve everything, that you need taxes, laws, and government too -- none of this is radical or revolutionary, except maybe only in America where everything to the left of Ayn Rand is called "leftism", but apart from this, "left vs. right" is merely about how much the government should do, or whether market-based incentives are better than legislation and regulation, and even on this scale I'm fairly centrist, and I think you're only marginally to the left on me on most issues. We're not opposed to redistribution on principle, but we're pretty clear-eyed as to how difficult it is to pay for popular things with other people's money.

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 6 2019, 02:41 PM) I actually think a representative democracy works great, and that a version of the electoral college is an ideal way to elect an administrator. I think that a bicameral legislature is an interesting idea that's perhaps outmoded. I have several ideas for ways that I would amend the constitution to tweak the system to be more representative of the demographics of the nation.

If I were around in the 18th century and involved in the project, I would have had advocated something closer to Madison's Virginia Plan, where the Congress appoints the executive, except I would have done away with the upper house and just had a unicameral legislature. I would have also told the less populous states to go $#@! themselves with thinking every state deserves equal representation, and feel free to join the union later when they grow a pair.

I would also have made election to the legislature done by deliberative councils of citizens picked at random from the district, rather than general election -- probably the same as 'version of the electoral college' you allude to (and not the cluster$#@! of an electoral college that we have today in picking the president).

Oh and I would have also abolished slavery.

badp wrote:QUOTE (badp @ Feb 6 2019, 05:37 PM) All I'm saying is y'all should try having basic civilization things like universal healthcare or uh retirement pension or like a proper work life balance

Yes, let's take a page out of Italy's book, go back to 1990, and get rid of the Americans with Disabilities Act. After all, civilized nations, according to you, don't protect access to public spaces.

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Feb 6 2019, 05:43 PM) This is neither leftist nor communism. Socialism is not "when government does stuff". Socialism is about increased or total worker ownership of the means of production. Communism is about using socialism to achieve a classless society which abolishes inequality between rich and poor. Communism is not synonymous with a welfare state; in fact the modern welfare state goes back to Bismarck who introduced reforms as a mean to undermine the popularity of communism in 19th century Germany.

Communism is collective ownership of the means of production. Basically, it's the idea that labor (which is the ultimate means of production) is collectively owned by the community. Hence, "commun"ism. And I never talked about a welfare state at all. And by the way, communism is a means to the end of creating a classless society, not the classless society itself. Ultimately, communism is about "from each according to ability, to each according to need." Which, if you look closely at what I said, is... what I said.

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 6 2019, 06:32 PM) And I never talked about a welfare state at all.

QUOTE To me, a democratic government is just an agreement by its citizens to work together to create a society in which everyone has enough to survive.[/quote]

Sounds like a welfare state to me, similar to what we have in the US: minimum wage, social security, yadda yadda. We're not communist. We're not a particularly GENEROUS welfare state but communism is a qualitative difference, not merely a matter of degree.

Even Milton Friedman supported UBI NIT, which is basically UBI with extra steps. If that makes you a communist, Elzam's head would be exploding by now.

Edit: the sound you hear over in Rants is Elzam's head exploding right now.

QUOTE And by the way, communism is a means to the end of creating a classless society, not the classless society itself. Ultimately, communism is about "from each according to ability, to each according to need." Which, if you look closely at what I said, is... what I said.[/quote]

Pretty much all flavors of communism agree that a classless society is the end goal. If you're not too concerned about who has megayachts, that kinda makes you not a communist (unless there is a possible world out there where it is possible to own a megayacht on a laborer's income).

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Feb 6 2019, 06:53 PM) Sounds like a welfare state to me, similar to what we have in the US: minimum wage, social security, yadda yadda. We're not communist. We're not a particularly GENEROUS welfare state but communism is a qualitative difference, not merely a matter of degree.

Working together to create a society is a welfare state to you? I suppose in that case humanity has always existed in a welfare state...


QUOTE Pretty much all flavors of communism agree that a classless society is the end goal. If you're not too concerned about who has megayachts, that kinda makes you not a communist (unless there is a possible world out there where it is possible to own a megayacht on a laborer's income).[/quote]
Build it yourself?

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Feb 6 2019, 10:53 PM) Edit: the sound you hear over in Rants is Elzam's head exploding right now.

It sounded like a balloon

Apparently Elzam thinks for himself. I find that hard to believe, mostly because I've yet to see any credible evidence that he thinks at all.

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 7 2019, 03:27 AM) Yes, let's take a page out of Italy's book, go back to 1990, and get rid of the Americans with Disabilities Act. After all, civilized nations, according to you, don't protect access to public spaces.

You wanted to prove Europe isn't THE world's high water mark in quality of life. In order to do so you had to look at Italy AND go back to 1990. For fairness, I think the main takeaway is that you suck at this. You could have brought up how we deal with transgender people today, that would've been better.

I never brought Europe up by the way, so you can drop the strawman. I just want you to have nice things.