AllegSkill

Allegiance discussion not belonging in another forum.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Mar 20 2018, 02:24 PM) I think the cure is worse than the disease here. Even in Halo you can do an XBox party with your friends and roflstomp whoever you want. Playing with friends (and against enemies) is part of the fun of the game.
You might be surprised at how unsatisfying it is to repeatedly roflstomp, and how bad the roflstomp plan is for the community as a whole. Sure, you and your buddies have fun for one game, but what incentive do the players you roflstomp have to continue playing? Good matchmaking is important specifically to prevent grabbing your friends and just roflstomping over and over because that's how you drive people from your game.

That being said, you'll find that I actually specifically mentioned party systems. I do want to choose to fly with SumV occasionally. I don't want every game to be a "follow-the-leader" style where everyone just follows the "good players" over and over again because they realize they can just voob it up and boxset or whomever will carry them. The beset system would be something like they have in Overwatch, League of Legends, Starcraft, Dota, etc. etc. etc. (like I said) in which you can queue up as a group or individually and let the system decide who your teammates and opponents are.

Now, if you want to discuss the flaws of that system, well here are a few for you to chew on. First, such a system breeds toxicity: I'm going to play in such a way that nearly every game everyone I play with is at about my level. That means that when something goes wrong, it's very easy for me to blame it on someone else. After all, we're losing a game of League, I'm not doing horribly, and we're all at the same skill level (in theory), so it just must be that you suck. Second, such a system almost preempts the use of lobbies, which really does a great job of killing any sense of community you can build.

I think the majority of players would agree that the main reason they come back to Allegiance isn't because the gameplay is unique (though it is) or because they're really good at Allegiance (most aren't), but because they have friends they enjoy playing with. I would be far less inclined to play this game if, for example, you and sumv stopped playing. A large part of the experience, for me, is flying with, for, and against people I respect and enjoy talking to. But if this were a League of Legends style matchmaking system, we'd have no place where we could get to know each other as people in addition to as pilots. Memes like "I call on the entire Allegiance community to come together and tell Cashto to go $#@! himself" aren't possible if our only connections with each other are fleeting, 45 minute games. Some people like to criticize that the Allegiance lobby is often a glorified IRC channel, but to be quite frank, that's almost exactly the entire reason most of us are still here.

QUOTE This is a terrible metric. Hour long games are more reflective of how the cores are designed, what factions are being played, and whether either team has a will to win or whether they just enjoy whoring. Arguably, hour long games are the cancer that kills allegiance, as everyone winds up exhausted at the end and not willing to play another game, or unwilling to join a game in progress they won't see to the end. Basically, any game that ends to a bomb rush is by definition not a balanced game?[/quote]
I'm always down for suggestions to fit a whole Allegiance game inn 30-45 minutes. So far every time I've used those suggestions the community has thrown a gigantic hissy fit which makes me feel pretty :mellow: about accepting suggestions from the community in general (and especially from certain "vets").
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Unrelated:

Hey Wasp, the powers that be do not like it when we bypass the swear filters using other characters to take the place in words that would be filtered out. They pay for the forums so it's kinda their house their rules. Thanks :D
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Wasp
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Post by Wasp »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Mar 20 2018, 06:30 PM) Unrelated:

Hey Wasp, the powers that be do not like it when we bypass the swear filters using other characters to take the place in words that would be filtered out. They pay for the forums so it's kinda their house their rules. Thanks :D
Hey P1, Eat $hit
vogue
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Post by vogue »

lol p1 you aren’t an anti stacker, don’t even front

honestly most of the folks complaining right now aren’t anti stackers. probably why you want a ranking system.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 5 2013, 08:35 PM) Vogue is clearly #1 and commanding against him feels like commanding against Spideycw at times... though he lacks that little bit of "I don't care who's on my team or what the factions are, it's going to be a stomp anyways" that Spidey managed to pull off in his heyday.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

vogue wrote:QUOTE (vogue @ Mar 20 2018, 05:09 PM) lol p1 you aren’t an anti stacker, don’t even front
More than half of my games I join the team that is less stacked. I'm not sure what more you want from an antistacker.

The only thing I particularly want is a ranking system that makes sense. Something better than "this guy probed a helium rock during the first week of February and thus accrued 1902489823857228549392 points and is therefore a 43."
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
cashto
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Post by cashto »

Wasp wrote:QUOTE (Wasp @ Mar 20 2018, 03:20 PM) I'm not making this up. Please quit making such such accusations. I quoted that specifically from a MS source some 10 years ago when I had this argument with baker and pook... I'm having difficulty finding that source at this moment.
This is the thread you're referring to. You didn't cite a source back then either. The notion that TrueSkill can't handle any element of random chance comes purely from your own imagination. I hope you'll agree with me that TrueSkill would work in a game like backgammon or poker.

The notion that TrueSkill can't work when some players have different roles also comes purely from your own imagination, as does the notion that it takes millions of game results to infer individual skills from big team games -- when in fact TrueSkill can and does make accurate predictions of 8v8 Halo matches using a training set of less than a hundred games.

Your whole argument for the past 12 years is argument from personal incredulity. You just don't see how it's possible, therefore it must be impossible.

What would it take to convince you? If it could be demonstrated that a ranking system did a better job at predicting future game results than most veteran players could do, would that convince you that that ranking system is better at assessing skill than they are?
Globemaster_III wrote:QUOTE (Globemaster_III @ Jan 11 2018, 11:27 PM) as you know i think very little of cashto, cashto alway a flying low pilot, he alway flying a trainer airplane and he rented
pkk
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Post by pkk »

Balanced teams:
TrueSkill considers teams balanced, if the average mu and sigma are equal on both teams, that doesn't mean if average ranks are equal that the game is balanced. This is $#@!ing misleading.

Paps is a bad player, because he is loosing a lot. A newbie might be a better player, but because the system doesn't have enough data (high sigma), he has the same rank as Paps.

Kick them while they're down:
Also Alleg is not Halo, you spend a lot more time on learning it. AllegSkill/TrueSkill is punishing players, which are learning the game.

Overall, AllegSkill is a worse ranking system compared to the old MS/current one. All you need to know is how long someone plays this game. Overall it is meaningless, because you prefer to play squad games anyway.
The Escapist (Justin Emerson) @ Dec 21 2010, 02:33 PM:
The history of open-source Allegiance is paved with the bodies of dead code branches, forum flame wars, and personal vendettas. But a community remains because people still love the game.
minigun
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Post by minigun »

Pkk reminded me of the old ms ranking. I don't think leader board should be a way to balancing games. If i lead everyone in miner kills, I've played 2000 games oh well. Catch me if you can. If i see metz has 100 games and 110 miner kills, I'd be like wow....that guys good. I remember fragzack was leader of base kills i think. I was like, i need to learn the ins and outs of driving a bomber. Oh i just moved up 10 spots in the last week, since im not afraid to grab a bomber anymore.
Last edited by minigun on Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cry,'Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war -Julius Ceasar
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qqmwoarplox
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Post by qqmwoarplox »

a reminder that not long ago Element spanked SysX twice and XT once and didnt lose a single squadgame despite only having 1~2 hyperwhores on its roster

the reminder aside I believe that forcing players play with a team or for a commander that they dislike is not a realistic proposal and thus players will either refuse to fly or continue to stack THEREFORE we should remove ranks altogether =]

However having a seperate website like spathiwa.net in the past that collects cool stats like kills, drones, base kills command wins and loses is a fun thing to have

Also everytime Metz talks about whoring is making me laugh

cashto and sara are prime examples of very talented utility players
Last edited by qqmwoarplox on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Papsmear
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Post by Papsmear »

pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Mar 21 2018, 04:56 AM) Paps is a bad player.
No truer words have ever been spoken.
Saudade wrote:QUOTE ( Saudade @ Mar 21 2018, 08:43 AM) THEREFORE we should remove ranks altogether =]
+1
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