Crisis in NL, plane shot down over Ukraine

Malicious Wraith · Post by **Malicious Wraith** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:55 pm

http://time.com/3005470/ukraine-crash-russian-media-blame/

Archangelus · Post by **Archangelus** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:33 am

You guys are all fools, it clearly was some brazilian narco trafficants who shot that thing. We are speciallists at shooting down flying things, to drive away attention!!

*hint doesnt really what side did it (it wouldnt bring the deads back, nor solve the conflict, but what would they want to hide with it.*

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:34 pm

Here you go guys: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07...-share&_r=0

Post by **pkk** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:59 pm

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 19 2014, 01:28 AM) The BUK system was operating without a full radar network (duh) and the rebels thought they were shooting down an Ukrainean military transport plane.

It doesn't matter if the SAM was operating in a combination with a central surveillance radar or not, it's a TELAR system by design. There was no "blind shot".

MrChaos · Post by **MrChaos** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:32 pm

pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Jul 22 2014, 04:59 PM) It doesn't matter if the SAM was operating in a combination with a central surveillance radar or not, it's a TELAR system by design. There was no "blind shot".

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

It is wiki and all but
QUOTE The missiles require a radar lock to initially steer the missile to the target until the missile's on-board radar system takes over to provide final course corrections.[/quote] So if the launcher does not have line of sight at all times until the missile's system engages there could be a blind spot

. (I believe) the point Adept was making was, I think, is while the plane can be taken down with the radar system on the launcher it is very short range and doesn't give a larger picture of the prior flight path or possibly a better radar image which could have prevented the plane being downed in mistake.

If you believe wiki
QUOTE The most capable radar, assuming it has a line of sight (no terrain between the radar and the target), can track targets (depending on size) as low as 100 feet (30 m) and as far as 85 miles (137 km). The most capable missile can hit targets as far as 30 miles (48 km) and more than 80,000 feet (24,000 m) in altitude.[/quote] At 600MPH and 33k feet a passsenger plane or military cargo hauler flying a straight course you still only have a few minutes to decide your actions... again if we believe wiki. It must take some additional time to prep for launch after acquiring the target too. It makes perfect sense they got a quick ID and launched (if it was a first gen Buk i.e SA11 and not one of the upgraded versions) thinking it was another cargo plane.

It may make you happy to hear that a few of the news media personalities here in the US are actvely saying not to blame the Russians yet and the evidence is far from overwhelming that they or the rebels shot down the plane. These media types are saying that the Ukraine would consider it an acceptable risk to false flag the downing of the plane to gather crucial EU support and to push Russia to stop backing the rebels. They used the example of the RMS Lusitania, carrying wartime munitions as well as passengers, and the fact the Germans specifically told the passengers boarding in the US via newspaper articles not to board her as she was considered to be open for attack.

*shrug* My early money is the Russian gave their pets some old stuff to help them keep things unstable hoping to get some kind of positiive outcome regarding the unrest and it back fired on them so they are playing the lying game. It doesn't make them unique in doing this stuff tbs and there is alot of historical pots calling the kettle black on this one too. I certainly do NOT want to go to war over this or anything else related to the Ukraine as this mess started with EU skulldugery and it is obvious they want nothing to do with a real confrontation with Russia (good for them).

tl;dr
STFU McCain and take a relaxing bath

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:36 pm

pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Jul 22 2014, 11:59 PM) It doesn't matter if the SAM was operating in a combination with a central surveillance radar or not, it's a TELAR system by design. There was no "blind shot".

Of course not, but with a single radar you don't get as good a picture of the target.

A rebel leader bragged on twitter (or it's Russian equivalent) about having downed an Ukrainean military transport plane. "Stay out of our sky!". The tweet got taken down pretty quickly once they realised it was a passenger jet.

Post by **pkk** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:16 am

MrChaos wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos @ Jul 23 2014, 12:32 AM) It is wiki and all but
So if the launcher does not have line of sight at all times until the missile's system engages there could be a blind spot . (I believe) the point Adept was making was, I think, is while the plane can be taken down with the radar system on the launcher it is very short range and doesn't give a larger picture of the prior flight path or possibly a better radar image which could have prevented the plane being downed in mistake.

Right, IFF takes hours to send it's identification code...

MrChaos wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos @ Jul 23 2014, 12:32 AM) If you believe wiki
At 600MPH and 33k feet a passsenger plane or military cargo hauler flying a straight course you still only have a few minutes to decide your actions... again if we believe wiki. It must take some additional time to prep for launch after acquiring the target too. It makes perfect sense they got a quick ID and launched (if it was a first gen Buk i.e SA11 and not one of the upgraded versions) thinking it was another cargo plane.

It is mounted a a tank, carries it's build in electric generator, so deployment time is pretty short, should take less than 30 secs if you operate autonomous (from my experience with Gepard, Roland and LeFlaSys). But normally you operate at a fixed location, you're covering your part of the sky. This system is not build to escort convoys and provide cover on the move.

You also have to remember, that the missiles can reach mach 3.

Ukranine has Buk-M1, so it's not the first generation.

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 23 2014, 12:36 AM) Of course not, but with a single radar you don't get as good a picture of the target.

There is no radar network within Buk system, there is a central target designation radar (360 degree for command post) and the launchers radar (less than 150 degree, search and acquisition radar).

If you ever served within a SAM unit, you would understand the propose of such a command post with designation radar.

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:43 am

pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Jul 23 2014, 10:16 AM) There is no radar network within Buk system, there is a central target designation radar (360 degree for command post) and the launchers radar (less than 150 degree, search and acquisition radar).

If you ever served within a SAM unit, you would understand the propose of such a command post with designation radar.

Just to make this clear. You think it is impossible for the rebels to have shot down the jetliner from 10km and think it was like the transport plane they shot down from 6 km earlier? That whoever operated the system had to know they were targeting a passenger jet?

Post by **pkk** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:43 pm

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 23 2014, 01:43 PM) Just to make this clear. You think it is impossible for the rebels to have shot down the jetliner from 10km and think it was like the transport plane they shot down from 6 km earlier? That whoever operated the system had to know they were targeting a passenger jet?

It is possible, that whoever operated that SAM ignored the IFF data.

In case the rebels shoot down the civil plane:

$#@! this IFF data, the Ukraines are using wrong transponders.

$#@! IFF, of course it is a friendly target, because we're using an Ukranian SAM.

A plane? I have to shoot it down. <presses engage button> (I have no idea what I'm doing.)

In case the Ukrainian military shoot down the civil plane:

$#@! this, we blame the seperatists/Russians.

In case the Russians shoot down the civil plane:

$#@! this, we blame the Ukrainians.

Maybe someone was at the operator console, who had no clue what he's doing. (What this, I'll be back in a few minutes. Don't touch anything!)

Who knows the truth right now.

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:17 pm

Thanks pkk. Then we basically agree.