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TakingArms wrote:QUOTE (TakingArms @ May 23 2012, 05:02 PM) That's all well and good to say, Adept, but some UK fool wrote that article that TC keeps citing, which seems to claim that since Germany never paid any WWII reparations that somehow they have a duty to bail out greece. That's just insane to me, given that all the people who made any decisions, fired any weapons, or did any damage in WW2 are all dead.

for info.
The Guardian article is actually written by a German chap who works at the London School of Economics.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/albrecht-ritschl

http://mfi.uchicago.edu/people/ritschl.shtml

Doesn't stop him being a fool.

Greece, Spain Deeply Uncertain About Economic Futures
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-j...pain_05-23.html

LINDSEY HILSUM: On the streets of Madrid, they have a message for the leaders meeting in Brussels: Stop cutting and start promoting growth.

For them, the Spanish government's decision to recapitalize Bankia, the country's fourth largest lender, while reducing education spending by 20 percent, was the last straw.

Students and teachers are just the latest people to come out on strike in Spain. They say the government shouldn't be bailing out the banks while it's cutting education, because that will destroy the future of the country.

WOMAN: We have fought very hard for many, many years just to lose things just like that, just because of the government, just because of Europe, just because of the European bank. We don't like that.

LINDSEY HILSUM: With youth unemployment nearing 50 percent, students see no future in Spain.

So where will you go?

MAN: I don't know, Latin America somewhere, Brazil, Mexico, somewhere where it's going up, you know?

LINDSEY HILSUM: The leaning towers of Bankia dominate the Madrid skyline, but it's unlikely to be the only Spanish bank needing a bailout.

No one here's expecting a miracle from God, but many Spaniards would like a word with the Germans, whom they blame for forcing their government to persist with austerity measures.

IRENE LOZANA DOMINGO, Spain: Also, Germany has got a lot of profits from the euro. Because Spain was rich, we bought many things that were made in Germany. So if we go -- we are all linked. So, if we go to hell, they are coming with us.

I predict it's going to hit harder for Greece because of the drop in tourism. They need to get some deals on to boost tourism, maybe try some bookings for DJ's and gigs to attract more tourists.

EDIT: Or they need to try and get assistance from the Russians to get assistance from the US. Was so much easier for poor countries in the days of the Soviet Union. Worked wonders for West Germany.

Not that any of this is relevant, but...

notjarvis wrote:QUOTE (notjarvis @ May 24 2012, 07:30 AM) for info.
The Guardian article is actually written by a German chap who works at the London School of Economics.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/albrecht-ritschl

http://mfi.uchicago.edu/people/ritschl.shtml

Doesn't stop him being a fool.

His office address per his website is:

Economic History Department
London School of Economics
Clare Market Building, C415
Houghton Street
London WC2A 2AE, England

Per his CV he's been working at the London School of Economics for 5 years. Sorry, UK, you let him in and you employ him. I think you own him now!

Now is the time for Greece to attack. Then they can get pushed back, with a replacement provo government which will be seperatly monitored by a world community thus driving down the corruption rate. Meanwhile the people who push Greece back will make huge low-to-no interest infrastructer investments (it's only fair after all), setting Greece up as a manufacturing powerhouse which will proceed to become a new world power in as little as 50 years.

Not like there isn't a model for this type of thing already...

Shame that everyone can't just help everyone out, but communism doesn't seem to be shining light to guide the hearts and minds.

Oh well, back to sheep sleep.

BackTrak wrote:QUOTE (BackTrak @ May 24 2012, 05:24 PM) Shame that everyone can't just help everyone out, but communism doesn't seem to be shining light to guide the hearts and minds.

This kind of opinion about greece strikes me as so naive and strange and misguided. Right now, as we speak, the nations of Europe are prepared to pour money into Greece at interest rates that are far lower than justified given the behavior of its government. Before they do that, they are asking Greece to get its spending in order. Greece is refusing to do that, yet somehow people hold this opinion that this money should be poured into Greece anyway.

Given its current spending and structure, the Greek government is a bucket full of holes. If you pour money in right now, you're just going to need to keep pouring money in until there's nothing left to pour. Greece needs to fix the holes before anybody should give them any money.

That's my opinion based on what I've read in the reports. It could be totally wrong and misguided but so far nobody on here has pointed out any facts which tend to convince me otherwise.

TA, take those words at a smaller scale as in:

I could provide this education service at a lower cost if I could trust the people involved to correctly spend the money so that I don't need to hire 10 of my closest friends to help me administer the project.

I could build this road for a fair price, and pay everyone a decent wage because I wouldn't need to hire 10 of my buds to help me ensure that the people I hire build at least something.

I could hire competent administration staff, instead of my buds because I know they won't stab me in the back with their buds to get more of the pie, first chance they get. Oh, and to keep my buds from stabbing me in the back, I'll need to get them all limos and hookers.

The problems are like weeds ever growing at such a small scale it's impossible to fix with a big money lever. The inefficiencies are too great, as you say, too many holes in the bucket.

So, how to fix it? Could you fix it and still maintain a countrie's sovereignty? If only government systems were like light bulbs and you unscrew the broken one, and try out the funky green one for a while, and see if you liked it better.

This isn't just about Greece, everyone's got this type of issue, Greece's boat just ran on the rocks a little higher, faster and ahead of everyone else.

I am confused, are you saying that the problem is that Greek politicians are corrupt and didn't spend the money they were given properly?

Nah, I'm sure it's just me being uninformed. I was under the impression that the issue was too low taxation / tax evasion coupled with over gracious social programs performed by an administration who were hiding debt in a system that was leaking money hand over fist due to corruption.

However, I should really go read up on it I think. I've been listening to audio books in the car the last 8 months, my world view is hopelessly out of date.

It's not like I'm really far away from a web browser right now or anything...

Here's a good snippet on generous social security rules and on tax evasion in Greece. http://www.econ.washington.edu/user/te/blo...4th-Salary.aspx

I also heard once about a tax on swimming pools. In an affluent area something like 3 people declared having one, whereas google maps satellite view revealed hundereds...

Sure their system isn't great and needs reform. However to say this "Before they do that, they are asking Greece to get its spending in order. Greece is refusing to do that" isn't really representative of what "they" are asking of Greece. It's brutal, is having a really bad effect on people in Greece and is destroying what's left of their economy. Here's a list from wikipedia.