A fine example of Orwellian Newspeak

Duckwarrior · Post by **Duckwarrior** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:41 am

Just a thought. Has anybody considered that our political systems are evolving, and that where we are now is about as right as we can get it?

Would anybody really want America to shift to being totally interventionist or totally non-interventionist, on the off chance that their hypothetical system would work better? Personally I think you have it about right.

Libertarianism is a great idea for the 19th century, so long as you can wield a hoe and don't have tuberculosis.

On the other hand I don't know very much about libertarianism or interventionism, but I do want to get in on the hot topic.

Camaro · Post by **Camaro** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:58 am

Duckwarrior wrote:QUOTE (Duckwarrior @ Oct 9 2011, 08:41 PM) Just a thought. Has anybody considered that our political systems are evolving, and that where we are now is about as right as we can get it?

Would anybody really want America to shift to being totally interventionist or totally non-interventionist, on the off chance that their hypothetical system would work better? Personally I think you have it about right.

Libertarianism is a great idea for the 19th century, so long as you can wield a hoe and don't have tuberculosis.

On the other hand I don't know very much about libertarianism or interventionism, but I do want to get in on the hot topic.

I greatly believe that we do not have it "about right." There are too many laws that unfairly favor X over Y... be them social or economic issues.

Being a Brit, you should understand the immense costs there are in having a huge military all over the world... it is something that is crushing our budget and dragging our economy down.

Libertarianism is a far-fetched ideal that is about as practical as pure communism. However, elements of it can be useful in practical politics... such as for reigning in budget deficits and such.

raumvogel · Post by **raumvogel** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:42 am

I think what the Duck means is Capitalism over other systems of the past. Mismanagement is causing hard times, but this is still the best system so far.

Mastametz · Post by **Mastametz** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:46 am

Capitalism is working absolutely $#@!ing amazing for those who took advantage of it in its early stages and/or were born into families of said people.
But the age of self made men is coming to a close. You either have or have-not at this point. Unless you're the incredibly brilliant and creative .01%. (or really lucky)

Post by **Raveen** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:31 am

I agree with Masta (yes, I'm as surprised as you are). I don't honestly think that the American dream that anyone can raise themselves from the gutter is applicable any more, at least not to anyone but the most exceptional.

Pushing towards a more egalitarian and meritocratic society would be a good thing (and I mean that for everywhere, not just the US).

As for the political system, the two party system works against moderates on either side and frankly the whole electoral system is mental and needs to be reformed ASAP. Even moving towards a system as broken as ours would be an improvement.

Malicious Wraith · Post by **Malicious Wraith** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:50 am

I see motivated people pulling themselves to success in my every day life. I am not sure the American Dream is "unreachable". I think it has to do with less people, as a whole, caring to "dream it."

MrChaos · Post by **MrChaos** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:42 am

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:47 pm

Sharpfish's definition of the left vs. right wing is a much more familiar one for us europeans at least than the ones Camaro uses.

As for communism I had a thought about it quite recently. Most of us already know it doesn't work (hi Sharpfish), but I think most haven't realised why. After reading Guns, Germs and Steel recently, I had what is possibly a nice moment of clarity about it.

Karl Marx's theory works for small groups of people (say up to 200, where everybody can still know everybody else). Small groups of people, assuming they are pretty much the entire day-to-day society can govern themselves without any real state. Everybody has to do their share of the work, help work out conflicts etc. It works for chimps and it works for humans just as well. Not perfect, but quite natural.

Problem is that these things break down when societies get bigger. We need more sociel structures, more power in the hands of chiefs other administrators and so forth. This doesn't come to us on an instinctive level, but every single successful society to have made it past early stone age has had to learn it (invent or borrow).

There you have it. Communism fails because it assumes the behaviour of small groups of humans can just be scaled up to work with a society of millions. It can't.

***

And Camaro, I'm sorry to say that the assumptions of Libertarianism are almost as bad. The self reliant frontierman could behave in the libertarian fashion, but even he was actually supported by the technology, structure and wealth of an organised society. The greater society working on the libertarian model is a fairytale at best.

Spinoza · Post by **Spinoza** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:57 pm

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Oct 10 2011, 10:46 AM) Capitalism is working absolutely $#@!ing amazing for those who took advantage of it in its early stages and/or were born into families of said people.
But the age of self made men is coming to a close. You either have or have-not at this point. Unless you're the incredibly brilliant and creative .01%. (or really lucky)

As hard as it is for me to participate in derailing my own thread, I agree with Masta.

In fact it's even worse.
I believe poor people are programmed by their environment and social structure to be low achievers and naturally pass this on to the next generation. This is the real social Darwinism...
There was a BBC documentary about children I think it was... they administered a simple test of will.
How long can you hold your hand in ice water... the well off kids and their parents do very well, the poor kids and their loser parents do very badly.

I distinctly remember the single mom on welfare who gave up after something like 7 seconds... you didn't even need a test, everything about her appearance was saying "I know I will never succeed in life".

When someone brought up in an environment like that comes out motivated, it's a freak of nature.

An important point:
Some people may bring up their immigrant ancestor who came to country X with nothing but a hole in his pocket.

I got a story like that too. My great grandfather was in his teens when he walked to Vienna from the shtetl he was born in, on foot, carrying his shoes in his hands because he only had one good pair.
He got into a a school for accountants, fast forward, retired as a member of the upper middle class with an apartment building and had the chutzpah to send his daughter to to a PhD in philosophy in Vienna, his eldest son to be a student loafing in Paris and another son to study Math. But I digress...

My point is, he may have been born poor, but he was brought up with a mentality which demanded people be literate (Observant Jews must be literate, period!) and better themselves.
The name for American urban slums, "Ghetto" comes from Jewish European history, but the people who live there exist in a social structure in which being literate makes you a punching bag and trying to better yourself is betraying your roots. Can you blame a child born there for not growing up to be a Jewish accountant with red hair?!

MrChaos · Post by **MrChaos** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:04 pm

Im pretty sure it is common knowledge where the term ghetto came from and how it is applied today is different... right?

Well no and yes Spin. Hard working immigrants made good stories are as American as kinde... errrm apple pie, and round errr baseball.

In todays society Hispanics tend to fit this mold, people from the Middle East too, and Asian Americans are the sterotype for this kind of behavior. Sure popular culture protrays them in less flattering ways at times and there is fire in the smoke but families tend to fit the model of the European immigrants that came befoer them.

Its the "we scarificed everything for your chance at the brass ring boy-check so you had better make it" that tends to be the motivation. It seems that when you give it all up and start over you value things more then when you are born into it. The ice water analogy in a nutshell.

MrChaos