Canadians

Non-Allegiance related. High probability of spam. Pruned regularly.
BillyBishop
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: Calgary Montreal Vancouver (depending heh)

Post by BillyBishop »

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 05:14 PM) Yes, it's true that incumbents tend to have an easier time in retaining their seat. So what?
Point being that with the limits placed on campaign contributions and the addition of the subsidy (done together for the purpose of balance), if it's removed parties (read; non-Conservatives primarily) are unprepared for this to occur, it's also something that specifically hurts anyone not an incumbant- not sure how I can be more clear.


FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 05:14 PM) By the way, your numbers (assuming they're true)
They're true, you can easily verify everything as it's all public.

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 05:14 PM) looks only at public funding. (If I read that right after a very quick scan.)
The first number on the first chart refers to the per vote subsidy, the second number on the first chart is the private donations from individuals and groups for 2009.

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 05:14 PM) To me, that's the only way a party should raise money - if they have sufficiently enough appeal and support, then people will reach into their pocket $10, $25 and $100 at a time.
You again, don't get it.

1) Subsidies are standard in western democracies.

2) The per vote subsidy was place BECAUSE the parties agreed that individual donations are important for democracy and to limit donations from companies and large groups (unions primarily).

3) The limitations on donations placed under Cretin-head were ONLY DONE with consensus BECAUSE the per vote subsidy was being enacted to counter any massive issues with that, AND to allow for demoractic advancement for the rights of ALL CANADIANS and to prevent the status quo from limiting change and styming a fair voice for ALL CANADIANS. The Greens are one party that got a huge boost from this and though I do not support the majority of their views I very much agree that 500-600k people should be treated with respect and listened to; which the per vote subsidy is for.

4) Your comments basically favour the rich and screw the poor and middle class, obviously you prefer to take advantage of those that simply don't have the economic means to unite and present their views nationally. It's a valid position, I just disagree with it.

Anyway whatever, I'm done since you and I aren't speaking the same language. :)
Last edited by BillyBishop on Wed May 04, 2011 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Makida
Posts: 1793
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:04 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Makida »

A party with the support of a certain number of rich voters, ideally, shouldn't have an advantage over a party with an equal number of lower-class supporters, in a working democracy. That's an unrealistic ideal, sure, but it's the one we should strive for. Obviously if parties rely on private donations for all their funding, the parties whose policies benefit the wealthy will come out on top. A lot of people don't have $100s lying around to spend on donations, never mind $1,100, but in a democracy, they should have the same right to have their views represented in government, and their voices heard. Obviously, however, if their party has much less money than a party with lots of rich supporters, that would not be easy to achieve.

In other words, the suggestion that that's the only way parties should be able to raise money is horribly undemocratic. It's almost equivalent to giving rich people more votes. Not directly, of course, but it's pretty obvious that the more money a party has, the more effective its campaigns will be, effectively translating the amount of private donations they receive into votes. Obviously a party whose policies appeal to less wealthy segments of society would then be at a significant disadvantage.

I find it hard to believe the Conservatives would be proposing this policy if they expected it to hurt them more than the other parties. Harper is very politically competent and shrewd, and very good at playing political games. He would not knowingly do something that would put him at a disadvantage.
Last edited by Makida on Wed May 04, 2011 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BillyBishop
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: Calgary Montreal Vancouver (depending heh)

Post by BillyBishop »

The percentage below is how much the per vote subsidy is compared to the private contributions annually;


Conservatives 36.0%
Liberal 44.3%
New Democrat 55.6%
Bloc 81.4%
Green 62.9%
BillyBishop
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: Calgary Montreal Vancouver (depending heh)

Post by BillyBishop »

A Green perspective;

By Lawrence Colero on 5 April 2011 - 12:56am
If elected, the Conservative Party has promised to scrap the one type of public funding in elections that is fair, equitable, and democratic. In essence, the Per-Vote Subsidy allows each Canadian to choose which party gets the $1.95 for his or her vote. It’s like everyone making a two-dollar donation to the party of their choice.

Every other form of government funding for election campaigns is more worthy of re-examination, since each of these requires taxpayers to pitch in for parties they wouldn’t otherwise support. These public expenses are almost entirely based on how much money a party or candidate spends or receives, rather than how Canadians vote.

1. Political donations qualify for an income tax credit of up to 75% - Canadians who contribute the most receive the most public dollars. The tax credit is paid for, during deficit years, with debt taken on by all Canadians regardless of their wealth or political preference.

2. Sixty percent of local campaign expenses are refunded after the election if the candidate obtains over 10% of the vote - This penalizes young parties and thrifty campaigns. The more expensive the campaign, the more tax dollars are needed to support it.

Based on the number of voters in my riding of South Surrey-White Rock-Cloverdale, each candidate can spend up to $94,000. This would result in a $56,400 refund for each major candidate’s campaign. Based on the three parties who qualified last election, that’s potentially $170,000 - much more than the total $107,000 Per-Vote Subsidy paid out in this riding for the 2008 election.

3. Fifty percent of each party’s national campaign spending is reimbursed by government - Again, the more the party spends, the more they are rewarded with public funds. Canadians pay the most for the big spenders.

The previous Conservative plan to scrap the Per-vote Subsidy triggered the prorogation of Parliament. It is less a serious cost-cutting measure, and more about making elections less democratic. It would provide the wealthiest parties the greatest advantage by removing a mechanism that helps to level the playing field.

If Canadians do the math, they would understand the need to address the more costly public funding policies, and the merits of reviewing how those policies could make our elections more democratic.

ADDENDUM:

Perhaps the most egregious inequity in campaign public funding is pre-election spending by the party in power. The Conservatives turned this into an art form in 2011, spending $26 million in TV ads to promote the Economic Action Plan during its final three months. Overall, promoting the questionable success of that program leading up to this election cost Canadians about four times the total amount of a Per-Vote Subsidy.

Money talks. It can be used to inform, but also to sway public sentiment. Here in our riding, the incumbent has used his MP’s budget for years on shameless self-promotion – yet within the letter of the law. He doesn’t appear to see anything wrong with this. Apart from some of his own supporters deserting him, there is no incentive for him to stop. Obviously, we need clearer rules on how MPs use government funds during their term in office to eliminate this unfair advantage and misuse of public funds.
BillyBishop
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: Calgary Montreal Vancouver (depending heh)

Post by BillyBishop »

From the National Post;

Doing away with per-vote subsidy could alter electoral landscape: analysts

Fotolia
.Comments Twitter LinkedIn Email .Kathryn Blaze Carlson Apr 11, 2011 – 8:45 PM ET | Last Updated: Apr 11, 2011 8:32 PM ET

The Conservatives say their motive is unburdening the already burdened taxpayer. The opposition has mostly couched its argument in terms of equity. But behind the principled rhetoric surrounding the debate over $2-a-vote public subsidies for political parties are the parties’ competing self-interests, each with implications for the Canadian electoral landscape.

On the campaign trail, the taxpayer-funded allowance is again at the fore, with Conservative leader Stephen Harper pledging to slash the contentious measure should Canadians elect a Tory majority. The NDP have offered qualified support for the cancellation of taxpayer subsidies, though the party has also said that if the Tories dislike the allowance so much, they should simply refuse to accept it.
“Mr. Harper is doing his best to make this a passionate concern among voters,” said Ned Franks, an expert in parliamentary procedure and professor emeritus at Queen’s University. “But it’s pure party politics, and the principles come in a very, very distant second.”

Every ballot cast on May 2 amounts to a roughly $2 donation to a pool of taxpayer dollars that is later distributed to the parties based on how many votes they garner. This party allowance — which amounted to more than $28-million in 2008 — has long harried the leaders, even catalyzing the prorogation of Parliament in 2008.

Mr. Harper stated earlier this month that neither corporations nor unions nor governments should fund parties, and that per-vote subsidies degrade the parliamentary system because they help perpetuate constant electioneering.

“The war chests are always full for another campaign,” the Prime Minister said at a campaign stop. “You lose one, immediately come in the cheques and you’re ready for the next one, even if you didn’t raise a dime.”

Meanwhile, Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff said the Conservative plan runs afoul of fairness, because quashing the inflation-indexed subsidy would give the Tories — whose 2008 individual donations totalled twice that of the Grits and the NDP combined — a game-changing financial advantage.

In absolute terms, killing the public subsidies would hurt the vote-rich Tories the most (see graphic at bottom of post).

However, relative to total funds raised, the Conservatives have the least to lose: In 2010, subsidies accounted for 27.7% of the party’s overall revenue, compared with the NDP at 28%, the Liberals at 34.4% and the Bloc at 48%.

Perhaps predictably, then, the Conservatives argue that the subsidy unfairly funnels taxpayer dollars to parties that voters do not necessarily support — which sounds like a jab at the Bloc, the separatist party that raised just $713,085 in individual donations in 2008.

“You could call it biting the hand that feeds you,” Mr. Franks said of the millions allocated to the Bloc.

The Chretien government rolled out the quarterly allowance in 2004 in a bid to offset an outright ban on corporate and union donations. The Liberals also capped individual donations at $5,000, a limit the Conservatives have since reduced to $1,100.

The new financing system has benefited the Tories, who have excelled at grassroots fundraising ever since the 1974 Elections Act established generous tax credits for individual donations. The Liberals have been less effective at driving home the message that a $100 donation to the party only costs $25 once the 75% tax credit is applied.

And so with their war chest bulging, the Conservatives have perfected the art of launching attack ads between elections, when there are no spending caps. Mr. Ignatieff, whose leadership rating has long trailed that of the overall support for his party, bore the brunt of such an attack in the months preceding this election.

Although Liberal and Bloc support for the subsidy aligns neatly with their self-interests, their arguments also happen to align with the interests of democracy itself, experts in campaign financing say. This camp argues that the subsidy levels the playing field among parties with varying abilities to fundraise, offsets the ban on potentially corrupting corporate and union donations, and is but one of several measures aimed at propping up parties so they can have a national voice.

“While party allowances might not be an ideal mechanism to ensure fair and free elections, parties are a worthwhile cost of democracy,” said Peter Aucoin, a political science professor at Dalhousie University who served on the federal Royal Commission on Electoral Reform and Party Financing in the late 1980s.

Harold Jansen, an associate professor of political science at the University of Lethbridge, said although there are pros and cons to the per-vote subsidy — one of several government-funding mechanisms, including expenses reimbursement, which cost more than $29 million in the last election — the allowance ensures a healthy breadth of political debate.

“If parties can’t get their message out and communicate with the electorate, then democracy gets weakened, and that could impoverish political debate,” said Prof. Jansen, co-author of Money, Politics & Democracy.

Prof. Jansen said that cancelling the subsidy would force parties to go directly to voters, and would perhaps strengthen the ties between parties and constituencies. On the other hand, he is dubious that there is a lot more money to be had.

“Some parties have trouble raising money given the nature of the kind of policies they support and the constituents they represent,” he said.

In an interview with The Hill Times last week, former chief electoral officer Jean-Pierre Kingsley said desperation for dollars could also lead to pressure to reverse the ban on corporate financing.

As the debate unfolds ahead of the May 2 election, the parties are operating on an artificially levelled playing field: Spending during a campaign is limited equally among the parties to $1 per registered voter, although only the Conservatives came close to reaching the limit in 2008.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Last edited by BillyBishop on Wed May 04, 2011 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FreeBeer
Posts: 10902
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:00 am
Location: New Brunswick, Canada

Post by FreeBeer »

Right, so the Conservatives live off the teat of public subsidy less than the other parties, despite having the largest share of the popular vote. Look at the BQ - over 80% of their money comes from a federal subsidy. A party dedicated to the break-up of our country gets 4/5ths of its money from the government it wants to destroy. Do you consider this sane?

@girlyboy: the vast majority of donations to parties fall under the $100 category. No party should have problems with raising money from the constituents they claim to represent - it's only IF they represent them sufficiently enough that people are willing to part with their money. All parties have means to raise money from their core base. Most can't be arsed to do it because then they'd have to be held accountable for it and it actually requires work.
[img]http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/st ... erator.gif" alt="IPB Image">

chown -R us base
BillyBishop
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: Calgary Montreal Vancouver (depending heh)

Post by BillyBishop »

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 09:02 PM) Right, so the Conservatives live off the teat of public subsidy less than the other parties,
You mean aside from the malfeasence when they use government general revenues to promote their party?

EDIT: AND you aren't even reading the charts; Conservatives public teet suckage was 47million, 50% more than the next largest party.

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 09:02 PM) A party dedicated to the break-up of our country gets 4/5ths of its money from the government it wants to destroy. Do you consider this sane?
Yes.

As a anglophone from le belle provance I do consider this sane, even if I'm a staunch federalist and live in a right wing province.

You should not care about what the Bloc promotes when you are talking about what is fair for all, you are simply saying "oh I don't want to hear *that*, so that isn't democracy, that's censorship is what you're talking.

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 09:02 PM) @girlyboy: the vast majority of donations to parties fall under the $100 category.
Wrong, the average is something like $170 per person.


FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 09:02 PM) All parties have means to raise money from their core base. Most can't be arsed to do it because then they'd have to be held accountable for it and it actually requires work.


Seriously, look at the NDs and Greens that ran, with NO CHANCE (or so they thought in most cases) of winning, they took 35 days out of their lives (**JUST** for the election, not accounting for the tireless hours they also volunteer) losing money by limiting work and time from family. And I don't begrudge the other parties large or small, most of them were in the same boat for their sacrifice.

---

Right now in our 'more fair' system with a per vote subsidy, the Conservatives raise as much money as all other parties combined, removal of the subsidy will only further imbalance the spending and allow more Conservative only positions to be put forth, not to mention the simple fact that the Conservatives use government general revenues to promote their party.

So, yea, enjoy 'democracy'.
Last edited by BillyBishop on Wed May 04, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FreeBeer
Posts: 10902
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:00 am
Location: New Brunswick, Canada

Post by FreeBeer »

RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 4 2011, 05:04 PM) Right now in our 'more fair' system with a per vote subsidy, the Conservatives raise as much money as all other parties combined, removal of the subsidy will only further imbalance the spending and allow more Conservative only positions to be put forth, not to mention the simple fact that the Conservatives use government general revenues to promote their party.
Yes, the Conservatives have used government money to promote the work individual departments have done for the taxpayer. They learned well from the Libberals who have been doing this for generations.

There's nothing stopping the other parties from raising money as effectively as the Conservatives have. If their message is worthy of support, people will support them. Plain and simple. It's very much like a vote - except you can withdraw that vote at any time should they no longer be representative of your interests, or you can vote more frequently (by increasing that donation) when they're doing something you really support. That's instantaneous feedback and is VERY democratic in my mind. Also, the individual can choose to support multiple efforts/platforms if they so choose. Like the Conservatives stand on lowering taxes? Vote 'em a donation. You like the Green's stand on another issue, you can send them money, too! It ver democratic in my mind - and in a currency everyone understands.
[img]http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/st ... erator.gif" alt="IPB Image">

chown -R us base
BillyBishop
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: Calgary Montreal Vancouver (depending heh)

Post by BillyBishop »

Updated;
FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 09:02 PM) Right, so the Conservatives live off the teat of public subsidy less than the other parties,
You mean aside from the malfeasence when they use government general revenues to promote their party?

EDIT: AND you aren't even reading the charts; Conservatives public teet suckage was 47million, 50% more than the next largest party.
Makida
Posts: 1793
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:04 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Makida »

FreeBeer wrote:QUOTE (FreeBeer @ May 4 2011, 04:02 PM) @girlyboy: the vast majority of donations to parties fall under the $100 category. No party should have problems with raising money from the constituents they claim to represent - it's only IF they represent them sufficiently enough that people are willing to part with their money. All parties have means to raise money from their core base. Most can't be arsed to do it because then they'd have to be held accountable for it and it actually requires work.
You realise there are lots of people for whom donating even $100 would be a fairly big deal? Or that even if most donations fall at about $100, a wealthy person is going to be able to part with that $100 much more easily than a poorer person, since for them $100 represents a much smaller fraction of their total wealth? Even if the less wealthy person can, in theory, afford to spend that $100, they'll still be less likely to be willing to do so.

I'm sure it's true that some parties can't be arsed to work hard enough to raise money, etc., etc. But you can't just dismiss the whole issue that way. It seems pretty obvious to me that if parties have to rely entirely on private donations, those parties whose policies benefit the wealthy will be better off than those whose policies benefit the poor. All other things being equal, anyway. This seems like a pretty clear and logical claim to me. And it seems pretty obviously undemocratic.

I think that a party that can recruit X people living off minimum wage to its ranks should not be at a disadvantage, all other things being equal, against a party that can recruit X wealthy people. I fail to see how this proposed change won't result in this inequity being even more pronounced than it is now.
Post Reply