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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:11 am
by Shizoku
I'm still pretty against the removal of pp, but with the other changes like easier to get adv/hvy scouts I'm waiting to see how it works out. It may not be perfect right away, but it's a step towards interesting gameplay.

CC felt as though it was stagnating, I'm fairly certain it's one of the factors in the declining playerbase. Since xc I've seen the playerbase increase a bit, it may be because spring/spring break and other factors but perhaps it has to do with new gameplay.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:50 am
by spideycw
Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Apr 1 2011, 10:37 PM) I was one of those.

It's one thing to talk about nerfing pps in a vacuum. It's another to have pps removed in the midst of another large batch of changes.

It's also worth noting that Vir hasn't asked for and doesn't care about anyone's opinion. Those CC threads were there for the purpose of discussion. The XC changes are take em or leave em, this is what he's doing.
You are a braver person than I - trying to explain something like this to gandalf.

Frankly as I'm sure both Vir and Das will agree, running your own core is 100x better then having to listen to "community" input where people like Gandalf suggest the way to make a faction more played and more fun is to nerf them.

Community Core's audience is people like Gandalf.
XC's audience is Vir.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:27 am
by djrbk
Kumquat wrote:QUOTE (Kumquat @ Apr 1 2011, 09:27 PM) Thing we need to take into account is that XC came in with a vision and it required some substancial changes to get there. As it becomes more in line with the ideas behind it the releases will slow down and there will be small tweaks to it. I wouldnt expect the major change fest to keep coming forever.
I fully expect the size of the changes to be less massive now that gameplay has been altered to almost the level it was desired, but still we're looking at one person who can @#(! these things out 20 times faster than a council of people that vote on everything and squabble over ideas. (I don't know how much squabbling goes on internally, but since it is with a group of people all with slightly different allegiance ideas there is bound to be some and it is bound to be less efficient than one dedicated person)

A dictator type of system under a good leader will always be able to move faster and pump out changes faster than a democratic type, so even with his minor adjustments that are upcoming I'd still expect to see XC to get up to version 10 before CC gets to say 15.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:31 am
by HJ_KG
,

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:56 am
by DasSmiter
spideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 1 2011, 04:37 PM) This is the most retarded argument you could have possibly used for your point. Just using RP's for example pkk has been on about them for longer than adept has EVEN PLAYED THE GAME.

Next time save us all some time and post some quotes about how you decided gauss cannon needed changes
It just sucks that any time there's a hint of an Adept supported idea in CC it is suddenly Adept Core accusations all across the board, but when vir implements a few of the changes Adept likes the most it is suddenly gold. :S

That's already been addressed by a few here though, so I'll leave it.

Also I believe there's a whole thread on the gauss stuff, it's called CC11 changelog I think?
djrbk wrote:QUOTE (djrbk @ Apr 1 2011, 08:17 PM) Eh that doesn't seem all that bad to me. If an idea looks good in one core and seems transferrable without messing up too much/maybe even fixing up some stuff in the other core it seems reasonable to suggest it. Especially if one is a community core and the community likes what is happening in XC. Lessens the divide between the cores at that point while Vir sails his away through rapid evolution and CC slowly plods along, while still letting CC come up with its own things through different management. (XC has been through 4 major mods in the time that CC has considered 1 that had relatively light changes?)
Pretty much this. Vir has gone through and implemented a bunch of long suggested changes that simply don't fit into CC's more conservative releases. I disagree with quite a few of his changes, but on the whole it seems like we'll be able to finally change some stuff like PP and SY structure in CC without worrying about the 1000 bitchings we normally get.

Single dev cores are MUCH MUCH simpler than something like CC. Even a dev team core is simpler than CC. Vir has his vision of "How Allegiance Should Be" and that's fine, but woe be to anyone who doesn't meet with his sanction and has some issue with his changes.

Since day 1 of taking over for Spidey on CC I wanted to get a core going to try some of the more out there ideas. CC Experimental was to have some of the stuff like Spunky's econ tweak with capacity equalization, all faction starting figs, Brood's ideas on tech progression etc etc. However, when Vir came out with XC there seemed to be no need any more (also it seemed like Brood lost interest somewhat and I didn't really think anyone else had what it took to run any kind of core). CC will almost always tends towards stagnation. Since it is incredibly difficult to get any type of consensus on major changes (and indeed, they tend to be pretty imbalanced until you get a few versions down) you end up almost never getting anything done unless a vocal majority of the community considers what you're changing to be simply broken. There needs to be things like XC or the TFC to shake things up a bit, and at least putting the effort into lining up the numbers and exposing yourself to public ridicule by making the core file allows your points to be proven rather than theorycrafted.

One last thing before I'm out for a bit. If, sometime down the road, another core becomes the standard (lets say PC2 for example) then it's my belief that it is the CC ZL's duty to ask whether or not their current core actually reflects the desires of any but a small minority. If the answer is yes then I believe that the very next changelist should reflect most of the ideas present in the new main core (and of course an invitation to the core dev would be in order). Even within such a small community as 400-500 people something like CC needs to be constantly evaluated if it has any chance at remaining true to it's name. There will come a time when CC is no longer necessary (it's initial purpose imo being to respond to the issues with Noir's reputed lack of attention to majority opinion at times and to fix some of the more glaringly obvious problems in the DN we were left with), and it is the job of the CC ZL to decide when he is no longer needed. Although I guess the other Zone Leaders could just gang up and kick him out :)

Sorry to leave this wall of text here Vir, but I feel that I need to make it clear that my disagreements aren't based on "Oh another core threatens mine", but more "Oh I really don't like some of these changes." And I guess I also went and made some promises regarding CC :S

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:41 am
by Icky
DasSmiter wrote:QUOTE (DasSmiter @ Apr 2 2011, 06:56 AM) It just sucks that any time there's a hint of an Adept supported idea in CC it is suddenly Adept Core accusations all across the board, but when vir implements a few of the changes Adept likes the most it is suddenly gold. :S
The issues with this are:

- He has a history of suggesting ill-advised changes (which might be fine in a larger group of changes but alone are really not a good idea).
- He is on the CC team
- The gauss changes really brought a lot of attention to this fact, especially when he was the only one who had ever suggested they be nerfed, and it gave the appearance that the course for changes was

Adept's Head -> Adept's Mouth -> Das' Ear -> CC

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:50 am
by Gandalf2
Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Apr 2 2011, 03:37 AM) I was one of those.

It's one thing to talk about nerfing pps in a vacuum. It's another to have pps removed in the midst of another large batch of changes.
OK then, what other changes in particular are you referring to? XC has a ton of changes so I can immediately see what other changes make this OK in your eyes.

QUOTE It's also worth noting that Vir hasn't asked for and doesn't care about anyone's opinion. Those CC threads were there for the purpose of discussion. The XC changes are take em or leave em, this is what he's doing.[/quote]
True that XC is basically "Viru does what he wants" (not a criticism) but it seems to me this thread is here for the purpose of discussion of the changes :)
QUOTE The gauss changes really brought a lot of attention to this fact, especially when he was the only one who had ever suggested they be nerfed[/quote]
As was already pointed out that is not the only CC change that had only ever been suggested by one or two players, or had been done entirely behind closed doors. Possibly the biggest mountain-out-of-a-molehill issue I've seen in all my years here.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:03 pm
by Icky
Gandalf2 wrote:QUOTE (Gandalf2 @ Apr 2 2011, 07:50 AM) OK then, what other changes in particular are you referring to? XC has a ton of changes so I can immediately see what other changes make this OK in your eyes.

True that XC is basically "Viru does what he wants" (not a criticism) but it seems to me this thread is here for the purpose of discussion of the changes :)

As was already pointed out that is not the only CC change that had only ever been suggested by one or two players, or had been done entirely behind closed doors. Possibly the biggest mountain-out-of-a-molehill issue I've seen in all my years here.
Truth be told, I trust Vir enough to make changes in the right direction. Fair or not, he has enough experience, especially as a comm, for me to think that what he does will be OK and if not he will correct it. Adept and some others on the CC team don't have the gravitas for this.

The gauss change upset people because of the PRINCIPLE. The change itself was very minor, but:

a - it didn't need to be made
b - it stemmed from zero discussion or prompting from anyone besides adept
c - adept has earned himself a reputation for thinking things need to get nerfed when he gets owned by them

I don't want to reopen that can of worms but it's relevant to this thread.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:57 pm
by Seymor
It's great that a thread titled "the detractor thread" has half the posts about adepts crying and the other half of the posts being multi-paragraph dissertations.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:19 pm
by Bunnywabbit
Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Apr 2 2011, 03:03 PM) Truth be told, I trust Vir enough to make changes in the right direction. Fair or not, he has enough experience, especially as a comm, for me to think that what he does will be OK and if not he will correct it. Adept and some others on the CC team don't have the gravitas for this.

The gauss change upset people because of the PRINCIPLE. The change itself was very minor, but:

a - it didn't need to be made
b - it stemmed from zero discussion or prompting from anyone besides adept
c - adept has earned himself a reputation for thinking things need to get nerfed when he gets owned by them

I don't want to reopen that can of worms but it's relevant to this thread.
Hey Icky,

you do realise that what you're saying is this, right?
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Apr 2 2011, 02:37 AM) When Das and Adept propose an idea, OMG they're such idiots; when Night uses that exact same idea he's a genius and no one questions it because he's $#@!ing Night.