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NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Mar 2 2011, 10:29 AM) Also I'm not sure what the point of changing countermeasures is, if you just want to buff seekers and hunters you should just buff seekers and hunters.

The effect is the same either way, but you need to consider history of changes to figure out the proper fix. The countermeasures have been boosted at a point where they did not need any boosting whatsoever, so the proper thing to do is restore them. (HK resistance has been messed with since then and QF has been designed with the boosted CMs in mind, so those are the exceptions.)

In this case it doesn't make much difference, but a lot of the "back & forth" changes are results of not considering how we got here. There are issues that have existed all the way and there are those that have been introduced by sub-optimal changes.

Stuff I like:

Rescue probe sig/scan rectification. (also done in XC, though in a more drastic manner).Dreg He3 yield nerf.Really interested in seeing the new GT Pali

Not to beat a dead horse, but not only does hull-damaging EMP break the premise of what an EMP weapon is, it's basically giving galv to exp, which is silly on the face of it. And it doesn't scale well, besides.

It doesn't matter if it takes 20 ints and a whole minute for it to be a practical strategy. There's no sense in being schizophrenic about this. Why make something theoretically possible if you're not prepared for it being actually possible?

Kinda meh on the Bios changes myself. I think it's just hilarious the muddled thinking that went into it:

Everyone bitches about Bios being too weak after the payday nerf.A poll goes up, and "nerf Bios some more by removing its 'many' perks" gets a strong plurality.Someone asks what exactly these 'many' perks were, and it turns out not many people know what they actually voted for (leading poll question wording FTW).Fig prox was identified as a historical perk.Therefore, fig prox gets removed.

thx for changing the gt palisade.

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Mar 2 2011, 08:37 PM) Everyone bitches about Bios being too weak after the payday nerf.A poll goes up, and "nerf Bios some more by removing its 'many' perks" gets a strong plurality.Someone asks what exactly these 'many' perks were, and it turns out not many people know what they actually voted for (leading poll question wording FTW).

Bios gets a perk in this change list that may have escaped many people's attention. Heavy Cloak mass goes to 3, which is the same as reg cloak. This means that rather than bios having super light* ships to enable the use of an eight ton cloaking devide, they have normal mass ships and a cloak that is light enough to be worth keeping along in figs, ints and scouts.


*which of course means that it's almost always a better deal to leave the 8 ton HC at home and just fly the reduced mass ship.

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Mar 2 2011, 12:24 PM) Bios gets a perk in this change list that may have escaped many people's attention. Heavy Cloak mass goes to 3, which is the same as reg cloak. This means that rather than bios having super light* ships to enable the use of an eight ton cloaking devide, they have normal mass ships and a cloak that is light enough to be worth keeping along in figs, ints and scouts.

*which of course means that it's almost always a better deal to leave the 8 ton HC at home and just fly the reduced mass ship.

It's a nice perk. I'm going to have to try it out. I've know we've talked forever about the Bios heavy cloak / mass / fuel perk problem, and between this and XC's similar changes I don't remember where we ended up.

However, the total effect on Bios's early game strength is probably not going to be huge. Don't get me wrong, I like that we're getting them more in line with other factions. But JUST speaking about Bios's (by-design) early game weakness, removing fig prox is going to wipe out any early game advantage and then some. OTOH reversing the payday nerf is definitely going to make Bios cheesy again -- but only in the late game, it essentially is going to make them more resilient to losing all their miners in the early game which really is Bios's major Achilles heel as it stands right now.

Just for a suggestion, how about you guys do this

1. Identify each of the most recent problems each one of those changes are trying to fix
2. Reference the change to address the problem
3. Propose the impacts those changes will have to gameplay
4. Request input as to other impacts those changes will have

You guys have just

1. Proposed a heap of changes assuming everyone knows why; and then
2. Allowed people to complain about the changes

See the difference? It called involving the less learned in the community in the discussion and getting them to own the problem and solution
Its also called winning hearts and minds.

Vortrog wrote:QUOTE (Vortrog @ Mar 2 2011, 01:51 PM) Just for a suggestion, how about you guys do this

1. Identify each of the most recent problems each one of those changes are trying to fix
2. Reference the change to address the problem
3. Propose the impacts those changes will have to gameplay
4. Request input as to other impacts those changes will have

You guys have just

1. Proposed a heap of changes assuming everyone knows why; and then
2. Allowed people to complain about the changes

See the difference? It called involving the less learned in the community in the discussion and getting them to own the problem and solution
Its also called winning hearts and minds.

+1 to what the cranky gentleman from Australia just said.

spideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Mar 2 2011, 08:07 AM) So the community voted on bios changes not long ago Here.

Removing prox from figs was ranked 5th. Now you are removing prox from figs? How exactly do you decide which changes to make?

As has been said this is a proposed changelist. If you'd like to propose an alternate set of Bios changes let us know.

The Bios rollback option in the latest poll is what we're working from. Bios without the payday nerf is resilient and effective even with no miners. The changes at this point are mostly targeted at some of the more ridiculous stuff like the super agile ships and the relative immunity to early bombing Bios picked up after the introduction of prox on the figs that Noir did.

Vortrog wrote:QUOTE (Vortrog @ Mar 2 2011, 03:51 PM) Just for a suggestion, how about you guys do this

1. Identify each of the most recent problems each one of those changes are trying to fix
2. Reference the change to address the problem
3. Propose the impacts those changes will have to gameplay
4. Request input as to other impacts those changes will have

That's what we do internally, and some of it should carry over here, I agree. I think #4 is already covered as it is [complaining], but there has to be some of #1, #2 and #3 as well alongside the changelog format.

yiggz wrote:QUOTE (yiggz @ Mar 2 2011, 07:56 AM) Thanks Notj

Moving Seeker2 is unfair for scouts, I use a combination of prox and seeker to Defend and Attack, now when I pick seeker2 I cant use it if team has not gone sup... Should really move seeker to exp, so every tech path has a missile to be researched.

Um, moving seeker2 isn't unfair for scouts. Why the hell are you dogfighting in scouts? What do you think you're going to do with 2 seeker2 vs an int that you couldn't do with 2 seeker1? Moving seeker2 to sup constitutes no change for scouts. Net positive, actually, if it'll convince you to stop dming in scouts.