should nan restore energy of the target ?

[HSharp]

I think the main problem with the discussion so far is how Kage put out the topic.

Should there be guns that restore/damage energy (imo yes)
This really shouldnt be in CC forum but in misc dev forums to get a code change and put it into ICE so its up to core devs of how they implement it.

So don't put it in CC, but put it on ICE.

However I have a question, would it be possible for a gun to do more then one type of damage? I'm guessing no but could be a possibly coded in suggestion.

[KGJV]

why ppl think this will lead to 'infinite' ripin?

Even if the energy transfer ratio is 1:1 (which is too strong imho) , you wont get infinite SR. Do the damn math ffs.

Examples:

with 1:1 transfer ratio:

Rix: 1 sr and 1 regular scout

sr = 1200 energy, 30 recharge (30 energy recharge per second)
regular scout = 1200 energy, 60 recharge
fig rip cost = 1200

so 1 single SR allows 1 fig to rip every 40s

1 sr + 1 reg scout naniting to recharge the sr is equivalent to 1 sr with a 30+60 recharge rate. same as 3 sr.

if the transfer ration is only 2:1, you get 30+60/2, so basically 1 sr + 1 reg scout = 2 sr.

So EVEN with the best ratio of 1:1 (which is too much probably), you get the same as 3 SR (so the change allows 2 ppl playing "teamwork" to act as 3 - also they must be close, nan range is 400m, so more vulnerable to be both killed unlike 3 real SR scouts spread in the same sector)

so it's not "unlimited rip ins for the figs".

Cloaks:

a heavy cloak1 energy drain is 200 energy/sec.
a bios reg bomber has 90 recharge rate,
a bios regular scout has 60 recharge rate.

with 1:1 ratio you need 2 scouts recharging the bomber to get sustained cloaking (90 + 60 + 60 > 200)
with 2:1 ratio you need 4 scouts (90 + 30 x 4 > 200)

and that's theory, in practice if you ram the bomber or go across an aleph, some nans will certainly fail their aim at naniting.
and later these scouts can't repair the bomber because they'll be low on energy. so the defense should just ignore the nans actually.

and even if the bomber isn't spotted at all till in ab range, the defense will see the scouts heading toward their base. it's just about brain & teamwork on the defense side too (and probing but that's not new).

so yes teamwork is cheese.

ffs, a scout proxing an aleph is cheese but no one whine about this /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />


@HSharp:
no point posting in misc dev forums because code changes that affect core balance should be discussed in core forums 1st. no point coding a change if no core will use it.

yes so far they're is only 1 type of dmg per gun (the DM of projectile). I don't see the need of more type per gun.

We just eventually need more DMs (limit is 20 atm).

[HSharp]

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 18 2008, 05:47 PM) yes so far they're is only 1 type of dmg per gun (the DM of projectile). I don't see the need of more type per gun.

See your code change is for making nans heal energy when 100% hull so with guns only doing 1 damage type that would be specific to nans (and might affect it on all cores?), i'm thinking just get a new damage type which affects energy so you can get guns which damage/heal energy.

[KGJV]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Sep 18 2008, 08:41 PM) See your code change is for making nans heal energy when 100% hull so with guns only doing 1 damage type that would be specific to nans (and might affect it on all cores?), i'm thinking just get a new damage type which affects energy so you can get guns which damage/heal energy.

you can achieve this with DM/AC.

The proposed change here can be coded by adding an 'AC' for the energy pool for each ship type.

This way you can even create guns that only recharge and don't repair. Or guns that suck the energy of the target.

or guns that can recharge a scout but not a bomber for instance.

[madpeople]

QUOTE (guitarism @ Sep 18 2008, 03:32 PM) Sorry MadP, I meant more like you have 1 sr and 1 regular scout who nans the sr, unlimited rip ins for the figs. Cheese? I tihnk so.

the scout naning will run out of energy.

and even if the energy transfer efficiency was 100%, you would only get infinite things ripping in when the total combined regen rate was greater than or equal to the rate figs ripping in can drain energy.

and since there is no time limit on how often a fig can rip in, you can have any number ripping in at any given time, so the energy required to support that is number ripping in * energy it takes to rip one in

so if we have infinite ripping in, we need to provide infinity*energy used energy, which would need roughly infinite nans, luckily for us the server only holds 200 people.

SR scouts regen their energy at half the rate of a normal scout, if nanning only transferred half the energy it used, each extra nan would be the equivalent of one extra SR scout. so you would be in the same situation as you are now, only you wouldn't have to pay for them (but the enemy only has one to kill, even though it is getting nanned, a good ram or something...)

[Vlymoxyd]

I think it would be funnier to have an energy transfer gun rather than giving nans the ability to transfer energy.

I also think it would probably be a better idea in another core designed with energy transfer in mind.

Before transfering energy, could you make something to allow a nan3 that could nanite shields along with the hull?

Also, I think an energy stealing gun could be fun and could add a bunch of new options.

[Andon]

I would like to see a weapon that could go through shields.

I found a way to do it a while back using a negative damage and a negative damage modifier, but it didn't really work right as the target never died - Because it referred to the nan section of the code, it never checked for zero health.

[mcwarren4]

For the reasons already mentioned I don't like this idea. I read your rebuttle KGJV and I still disagree. Two scouts nanning a Bios bomber could make it have nearly perma cloak. It definitely could remain cloaked for the time that it is critical. If it goes through an aleph with a full charge the nans would have plenty of time to find it and restart nanning it before it ran out of energy. If it has hvy cloak 2 it would definitely work.

My question is why would we want to make this a feature? Not why would we not want to. It changes a lot of aspects of play and makes the more cheesy tech/faction combos even more cheesy.

Just my opinion.

[Andon]

I agree with Vly - Have a new section for the weapon - Energy transfer - that the core devs could decide to use or not to use.

An energy transfer gun could be fun - Have the amount set to negative for stealing energy, or the amount positive to give energy. This could be a nice addition to some of TF's turret guns, so that their main guns don't run out of energy

[Adaven]

Some of you are starting to make sense, but most are not seeing the Forest because of the Trees.


Q1: Do you want "weapons" that can reduce/increase a target's energy supply?

Q2: Should there be an option for such effects to kick in only when the target has a certain amount of hull?


These are the real questions you need to be discussing at this point, not dithering about balance. If Orion can balance a missle that kills everything in 2 sectors, I think we can manage to do this without screwing things up too badly.

I for one see lots of potential for both features I mentioned for both current alleg as well as new factions/Cores. My own hobby core would greatly benefit from these updates, and might cause it to actually be released some day.

I say go for it Kage, and here are my suggestions/requests to make it even better:
-Let us choose the hull % for each weapon on our own, don't lock one value into the code.
-The option for effects to activate below the threshhold hull % as well as above. Example: A gun that chews up hull until the target is down to 50%, at which point it removes hull and energy (the story being because it needs outer armor to be removed before it can damage internal systems)