+ 1. It's what I keep saying.Jinox wrote:QUOTE (Jinox @ Jul 22 2010, 11:11 AM) Most important thing I realized is not to FILL them up with TONS of information, that will scare them off eventually.
We should not let...
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OTDT_Hunter
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I am not saying for them to get bombarded with info. I am saying making it easier for them to get to know players and ask THERE questions at there own pace to people VIA Mumble/TS. It is a faster and easier way to communicate then typing everthing. It would be a great tool for @Help people I would figure.
i do this too and i would go one step further and encourage them to help newer players too with the info they learned, this way the process is scalable.Jinox wrote:QUOTE (Jinox @ Jul 22 2010, 08:03 AM) I am doing this already and must say it is good. I usually get a positive response from my newbies. I am not that good , but I am explaining as much as possible while we are flying. I encourage them when they kill stuff and respond any pm question I get.
A Spathi's Axiom for Survival: "The only brave Spathi is a dead Spathi. RUN YOU FOOLS!"
Actually it matters very much how many players you have when determining if you should use split tiered games. If you only really have enough people for one good sized game, splitting them off into three tiny games is a sure way to hurt the game. The point is to find a solution that is fairly painless to implement and will not alter the game to a great level while still providing a way to get newbs in game. Jimen is very correct it is the fact the newbs cannot even get into a game and when they do they are forced to join the stacked against side.
By using Clay's idea of not having newbs count against Imbalance this will let commanders take a newb on their team without fear of it letting some other vet take a spot on the other team to further stack. This lets them get into the game and fly in circles because as far as the commander is concerned he isn't losing a valuable space to someone who will be useless and he can still take on vets without fear of getting newb stacked and his game going horribly. This is a much more practical solution than this other crap you people are coming up with. I would at least use it as a first step and then see how it goes for awhile before enforcing more draconian measures that will change the entire face of the game. The point is to start small and non invasive and then work up if that fails. We don't need radical overhauls when I think this small change will do the trick.
By using Clay's idea of not having newbs count against Imbalance this will let commanders take a newb on their team without fear of it letting some other vet take a spot on the other team to further stack. This lets them get into the game and fly in circles because as far as the commander is concerned he isn't losing a valuable space to someone who will be useless and he can still take on vets without fear of getting newb stacked and his game going horribly. This is a much more practical solution than this other crap you people are coming up with. I would at least use it as a first step and then see how it goes for awhile before enforcing more draconian measures that will change the entire face of the game. The point is to start small and non invasive and then work up if that fails. We don't need radical overhauls when I think this small change will do the trick.
YESJinox wrote:QUOTE (Jinox @ Jul 22 2010, 06:11 PM) Most important thing I realized is not to FILL them up with TONS of information, that will scare them off eventually.
Don't try to teach them like this
1) first you need to know
2) you also need to know...
3) and this is even more important...
Heck, it's likely to be true, but what you need them to have is a taste of the lovely 3d movement, and some shooting at a moving target. The more intellectual ones may want to hear about stealth, probing and such.
Don't try to infodump.
Last edited by Adept on Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<bp|> Maybe when I grow up I can be a troll like PsycH
<bp|> or an obsessive compulsive paladin of law like Adept
I think team fortress initially was aiming to have it like an RTS where a commander leads a team a places buildings and such as is the case in allegiance, but they couldn't find a way to make it work well and so opted out of it all together.
We have other game modes that don't require a commander, maybe those should be done more often? Capture the flag, Deathmatch, etc. As much as Conquest is the preferred mode among vets, I think new players might enjoy a game where they can just practice dog fighting and flying around - getting familiar with the controls, instead of having to learn the complexities of a real time strategy and being hounded for mistakes that sometimes lose the game.
Just because a player doesn't have a number doesn't mean you should treat them like @#(! either, and I see it happen all the time.
We have other game modes that don't require a commander, maybe those should be done more often? Capture the flag, Deathmatch, etc. As much as Conquest is the preferred mode among vets, I think new players might enjoy a game where they can just practice dog fighting and flying around - getting familiar with the controls, instead of having to learn the complexities of a real time strategy and being hounded for mistakes that sometimes lose the game.
Just because a player doesn't have a number doesn't mean you should treat them like @#(! either, and I see it happen all the time.
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NightRychune
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The game doesn't suck now because we DON'T HAVE ENOUGH NEWBIES!11!
The game sucks because we lack superior commanders, superior pilots, and superior players who could make the game better because they've left in disgust with how $#@!ing stupid people are and how bad they are at the game, how they have no sense of allegiance gameplay at all and how they refuse to take any sort of advice whatsoever. Yes, people move on with their lives, they get busy, they do other things - but I guarantee that anyone dedicated enough, anyone who really enjoys this game could find two hours, just two hours, a week to play Allegiance for a little while. A lot of long-time, old players can't even be bothered to do that anymore because they hate the way the game has turned out over the years.
I know the autobalance and rank drama from years ago was the last nail in the coffin for a lot of people, and those people played often and contributed quite a bit to the game. Nothing has changed since then. I had that very conversation with Drizzo this morning. He's someone who has contributed a lot in teaching people how to play the game, and at this point he's extremely disillusioned and doesn't want to waste his time helping people anymore. Why should he? I feel the same way.
I volunteered not too long ago to work more closely with both the ACS and Cadet programs by overseeing a simultaneous addition to both programs that had ACS students learn to micromanage players by directing and evaluating the performance of cadets who flew for them, and in turn I felt this would have been a great help beyond being fed theory and documentation to people learning how to play the game. The idea was shot down because "IT'D MAKE LEARNING TO COMMAND TOO HARD" and "CADETS DON'T NEED EVALUATING IT'S OKAY IF WE JUST MAKE THEM READ A BUNCH OF STUFF AND THEN SAY THEY DID GOOD." I even had others agree that it was a good idea and that it would be a benefit to the quality of players and that it could do a lot of good, and even with my guarantee that I would personally - as the commander who defined and changed the way the game was played with DN - assist both ACS students and Cadets in this endeavor, it was believed too difficult on those involved and shot down.
Would I make the same offer and proposal again now? Absolutely not. My last straw has been drawn and I got what is probably going to be my last experience of what the game is, what it really can be, at its absolute best in April. The same conditions that started a strong decline here four years ago still persist now, and I have no reason to believe they will ever change enough for me to want to try and push this game back to where it really can shine.
The game sucks because we lack superior commanders, superior pilots, and superior players who could make the game better because they've left in disgust with how $#@!ing stupid people are and how bad they are at the game, how they have no sense of allegiance gameplay at all and how they refuse to take any sort of advice whatsoever. Yes, people move on with their lives, they get busy, they do other things - but I guarantee that anyone dedicated enough, anyone who really enjoys this game could find two hours, just two hours, a week to play Allegiance for a little while. A lot of long-time, old players can't even be bothered to do that anymore because they hate the way the game has turned out over the years.
I know the autobalance and rank drama from years ago was the last nail in the coffin for a lot of people, and those people played often and contributed quite a bit to the game. Nothing has changed since then. I had that very conversation with Drizzo this morning. He's someone who has contributed a lot in teaching people how to play the game, and at this point he's extremely disillusioned and doesn't want to waste his time helping people anymore. Why should he? I feel the same way.
I volunteered not too long ago to work more closely with both the ACS and Cadet programs by overseeing a simultaneous addition to both programs that had ACS students learn to micromanage players by directing and evaluating the performance of cadets who flew for them, and in turn I felt this would have been a great help beyond being fed theory and documentation to people learning how to play the game. The idea was shot down because "IT'D MAKE LEARNING TO COMMAND TOO HARD" and "CADETS DON'T NEED EVALUATING IT'S OKAY IF WE JUST MAKE THEM READ A BUNCH OF STUFF AND THEN SAY THEY DID GOOD." I even had others agree that it was a good idea and that it would be a benefit to the quality of players and that it could do a lot of good, and even with my guarantee that I would personally - as the commander who defined and changed the way the game was played with DN - assist both ACS students and Cadets in this endeavor, it was believed too difficult on those involved and shot down.
Would I make the same offer and proposal again now? Absolutely not. My last straw has been drawn and I got what is probably going to be my last experience of what the game is, what it really can be, at its absolute best in April. The same conditions that started a strong decline here four years ago still persist now, and I have no reason to believe they will ever change enough for me to want to try and push this game back to where it really can shine.
Does anyone have the link to MrC's cycles of the allegiance player? Reading some of these comments reminds me that it is so very dead on.
If the slate was to be wiped clean, and only newbies came to play with no vet guidance, do you not think that they would have tons of fun rediscovering all of the great tricks and strategies that have already been devised? I would imagine there would be tremendous amounts of fun people could have if things could actually be made "new" again. One negative issue is that when ever newbie X makes a discovery, their joy is quickly stomped into the dirt by those that figured it out 5 years ago. Oh well, there's no stopping human nature.
But, that doesn't mean we should just give up on finding new things to add to the game that could make it more fun for all to play. Lots of ideas have already come out of this thread, and that's pretty positive.
If the slate was to be wiped clean, and only newbies came to play with no vet guidance, do you not think that they would have tons of fun rediscovering all of the great tricks and strategies that have already been devised? I would imagine there would be tremendous amounts of fun people could have if things could actually be made "new" again. One negative issue is that when ever newbie X makes a discovery, their joy is quickly stomped into the dirt by those that figured it out 5 years ago. Oh well, there's no stopping human nature.
But, that doesn't mean we should just give up on finding new things to add to the game that could make it more fun for all to play. Lots of ideas have already come out of this thread, and that's pretty positive.
Nope I said it would make ACS more difficult IMO. there is already a large dropout rate in ACS as it's the most difficult training course we run (and rightly so).NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Jul 22 2010, 07:58 PM) I volunteered not too long ago to work more closely with both the ACS and Cadet programs by overseeing a simultaneous addition to both programs that had ACS students learn to micromanage players by directing and evaluating the performance of cadets who flew for them, and in turn I felt this would have been a great help beyond being fed theory and documentation to people learning how to play the game. The idea was shot down because "IT'D MAKE LEARNING TO COMMAND TOO HARD" and "CADETS DON'T NEED EVALUATING IT'S OKAY IF WE JUST MAKE THEM READ A BUNCH OF STUFF AND THEN SAY THEY DID GOOD."
And in-game help, advice, and teaching for CDTs/AFS can and should be done now by instructors flying in-game (I know fwiffo and others do excellent work in this regard
)No-one is stopping you giving advice and feedback to ACS comm's and CDT's Night. If they had any sense they would welcome such advice.
QUOTE I even had 1 person agree that it was a good idea and that it would be a benefit to the quality of players and that it could do a lot of good,[/quote]
FIFY - p1 agreed with you.The other posters in that thread disagreed.
QUOTE and even with my guarantee that I would personally - as the commander who defined and changed the way the game was played with DN - assist both ACS students and Cadets in this endeavor, it was believed too difficult on those involved and shot down.[/quote]
1 (or 2 if you include p1) people cannot make such a program work in My opinion. They would need to be flying day and night to see all the cadets in-game, and with the lack of enthusiasm from others, I asked for a proper proposal from p1 and we'd consider it in there.
