I wonder what the 'other' VW car owners will do. The ones not affected by the diesel scandal I mean. It is fair to say the reputation of VW has a severe blow. It might even that the sales value of their used VW cars drop.
Some countries have a strong internal market for "their" brand cars, I think it might explain some of the enthusiasm they jump on the 'beat VW" wagon. Never prevent a 'cheating company' to ruin their reputation I suppose.
I feel sad about the regular worker in the VW plants and their suppliers. I think people will lose jobs.
I can understand Mr C's arguments and he surely knows about cars and car markets. Curious what he might dig up.
Oh boy is VW in the @#(!
Well when you are right you are right. 11 million cars, and I'm not surprised... now have the software switch. It just came out.
I quite strongly called bull@#(! on VW claims regarding MPG on said 2L in an inter office discussion. I chalked it up to playing the sticker numbers for MPG at expert level. Oops. I also called bull@#(! on Diesel being clean something those who read this forum have read a time or two before from me. Ding ding ding
Ford's medium duty trucks (the kind that would deliver furniture to your home) were made by a third party for years and the sub supplier bet the farm on a new non-urea system that doesn't work for smaller Diesel engines say 6.7L.
Meaning they didn't pass emissions. Ford sat down with the Feds and agreed to a 6000 USD fine per vehicle and dumped the sub supper at the first opportunity bringing the design back in house. So not all the auto companies are doing it. edit: The fine was put in place before a vehicle was sold to the public and the sub supplier had to buy engines from its competitor and get them in the trucks using an unlimited budget.
Stop painting all car companies with the @#(! stained brush because your home team didnit. Could others be doing it, sure it is possible given VWs incredible hubris, but I believe the probability is no IF the Diesels use synthetic piss. Do I think the engines stay "clean" *shrug* the testing all say so.
Regarding how could it have happened, if you have vehicle testing you'll know that is just another at the office as you run 100s prehaps 1000s of tests prior to certification. It becomes routine and you cannot deviate at all or the testing is invalid. Each Powertrain combination and permutation for every model sold here goes through it so standardization is essential.
Jobbing the testing is child's play, if you are willing to be unethical $#@! faces of course. Europe, the Americas, Asia all have various standards so VW may meet some and the software defeat may not be activated for all 11,000,000 cars... you do know VW as a company is going to suffer through a life changing experience.
If I got to decide for my little country
Each car with active software defeat 8000 USD fine
Each Diesel car uwner gets 4200 USD trade in and MPG lose
All other VW car owners 1100 USD for trade in lose
All VW sales halted until they are recertifed
All Diesel sales halted until they have a fix
Buy back any Diesel at resale value before scandal + 200 USD times years in service for MPG loses
(Good for 90 days and the 4.2k will not apply)
2 billion punitive to be used for public health
No class action suits could be brought
I quite strongly called bull@#(! on VW claims regarding MPG on said 2L in an inter office discussion. I chalked it up to playing the sticker numbers for MPG at expert level. Oops. I also called bull@#(! on Diesel being clean something those who read this forum have read a time or two before from me. Ding ding ding
Ford's medium duty trucks (the kind that would deliver furniture to your home) were made by a third party for years and the sub supplier bet the farm on a new non-urea system that doesn't work for smaller Diesel engines say 6.7L.
Meaning they didn't pass emissions. Ford sat down with the Feds and agreed to a 6000 USD fine per vehicle and dumped the sub supper at the first opportunity bringing the design back in house. So not all the auto companies are doing it. edit: The fine was put in place before a vehicle was sold to the public and the sub supplier had to buy engines from its competitor and get them in the trucks using an unlimited budget.
Stop painting all car companies with the @#(! stained brush because your home team didnit. Could others be doing it, sure it is possible given VWs incredible hubris, but I believe the probability is no IF the Diesels use synthetic piss. Do I think the engines stay "clean" *shrug* the testing all say so.
Regarding how could it have happened, if you have vehicle testing you'll know that is just another at the office as you run 100s prehaps 1000s of tests prior to certification. It becomes routine and you cannot deviate at all or the testing is invalid. Each Powertrain combination and permutation for every model sold here goes through it so standardization is essential.
Jobbing the testing is child's play, if you are willing to be unethical $#@! faces of course. Europe, the Americas, Asia all have various standards so VW may meet some and the software defeat may not be activated for all 11,000,000 cars... you do know VW as a company is going to suffer through a life changing experience.
If I got to decide for my little country
Each car with active software defeat 8000 USD fine
Each Diesel car uwner gets 4200 USD trade in and MPG lose
All other VW car owners 1100 USD for trade in lose
All VW sales halted until they are recertifed
All Diesel sales halted until they have a fix
Buy back any Diesel at resale value before scandal + 200 USD times years in service for MPG loses
(Good for 90 days and the 4.2k will not apply)
2 billion punitive to be used for public health
No class action suits could be brought
Last edited by MrChaos on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ssssh
Just food for thought
Imagine being told your Diesel engines you marketed as game changing clean couldn't even meet emissions even though you had been assured that they were and would. You know full well the numbers were pulled from then air by people in charge who are elected for their looks and liability.
It meant the end of your career, your name, your legacy personally. It also meantt watching your company suffer catastrophic loses in market share, lay offs, factories closing and even possibly the company being broken up and sold off. What would you do? Especially in today's world full of the other team!s fanboy fanatics just waiting to hate on you long time, competitors waiting to eat your lunch, and countries completely unsympathetic to your dilemma.
If you don't trust politicians to do politics well wtf would you be shocked that they cannot actually understand the automotive industry well enough to regulate it correctly?
I can empathize with "them" but not sympathize.
Empathize spelled right now, I've come to hate autocorrect
Imagine being told your Diesel engines you marketed as game changing clean couldn't even meet emissions even though you had been assured that they were and would. You know full well the numbers were pulled from then air by people in charge who are elected for their looks and liability.
It meant the end of your career, your name, your legacy personally. It also meantt watching your company suffer catastrophic loses in market share, lay offs, factories closing and even possibly the company being broken up and sold off. What would you do? Especially in today's world full of the other team!s fanboy fanatics just waiting to hate on you long time, competitors waiting to eat your lunch, and countries completely unsympathetic to your dilemma.
If you don't trust politicians to do politics well wtf would you be shocked that they cannot actually understand the automotive industry well enough to regulate it correctly?
I can empathize with "them" but not sympathize.
Empathize spelled right now, I've come to hate autocorrect
Last edited by MrChaos on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ssssh
According to Jos Dings (*), Opel en Daimler seem to have the exact same deviation between 'test' and 'normal use'. "It is very hard to achieve these results without conscious intent'' says Dings bluntly.
* European interest group of transport and environment.
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/arti...olkswagen.dhtml
* European interest group of transport and environment.
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/arti...olkswagen.dhtml
The paper that started it all
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... ay2914.pdf
Apparently the German Green party is accusing the ruling party of knowing about it.
Just be aware you can exceed emissions periodically during operations, unless I misunderstand the paper, just so you hit aggregate targets.
If most companies are cheating then the Diesel needs to go away as a passenger vehicle IMHO
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... ay2914.pdf
Apparently the German Green party is accusing the ruling party of knowing about it.
Just be aware you can exceed emissions periodically during operations, unless I misunderstand the paper, just so you hit aggregate targets.
If most companies are cheating then the Diesel needs to go away as a passenger vehicle IMHO
Ssssh
-
hockey1015
- Posts: 938
- Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:00 am
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Oh and eMPG numbers are totally horse @#(! and not even close to reality. Go your little country's Overlords
French minister "we will be extremely through and extremely severe"
French minister "we will be extremely through and extremely severe"
Last edited by MrChaos on Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ssssh
The problem isn't the emmissions... It's the "defeat device." VW is able to have a clean diesel in the cycle and they are -from technology perspective- able to meet the emmision standards on most driving conditions. But they (=their customers) prefer more power over less emissions.
Another problem is the regulation/laws. Emmission laws do favour the local industry. Altough the cities in California have mostly a CO/THC problem NOx is much higher regulated (In europe it's the opposite). Large SUVs like the ford F150 is classified as truck and partial excluded from the standards.
This neutral view is written by an engineer who has spend a long time (but not now) improving diesel engines.
Another problem is the regulation/laws. Emmission laws do favour the local industry. Altough the cities in California have mostly a CO/THC problem NOx is much higher regulated (In europe it's the opposite). Large SUVs like the ford F150 is classified as truck and partial excluded from the standards.
This neutral view is written by an engineer who has spend a long time (but not now) improving diesel engines.
Last edited by lexaal on Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have a johnson photo in my profile since 2010.
F150 is a pick up truck not an SUV. It can haul 10 times more weight even in the base model and has wayyyyyy more torque and HP. All the OEMs, including Toyota, have offerings up to a class eight, requires a Commercial Drivers License (like a Semi truck driver). Chrysler Diesel pick up can haul 33,000 lbs total. Oh and most all pick ups, SUVs, vans, etc have to meet passenger car Tier 2 standards GVW less than 8500 lbs since iirc 2009. Tier 3, adopted in 2014,, has a phase in over the last 3 years given it took time to implement the upgrades in the Diesels. Btw no SUV is in the 8500 lbs and over class.. if I have some detail wrong I apologize as this is not my area of expertise.
VW is $#@!ed in China given Beijing 6 is so hard to meet gasoline vehicles struggle with it. Diesel engines probably cannot meet it with present tech unless use they the old VW method. I'm speculating of course and may be all wet.
The Chrysler 1500 3L Diesel Truck meets the standard VW 2L cannot and did it first time out. Hell the larger more powerful Diesel trucks being offered meet it now as far as I know and the 2L VW cannot still even after a decade... well to be fair they did have to cover the lie.
Europe had a separate segment called "Large passenger and light duty truck"until Euro 5 is still being implemented in some parts of Europe. If I undetstand right many years after the software switch was implemented here. Also the laws are so byzantine now I cannot figure them out without an effort I'm unwilling to go through but would listen to the details. I cannot tell what is or is not in what class tbc.
VW brought a Diesel engine knowing full well it couldn't meet Tier 2 and simply lied rather than doing something about fixing it. That unwillingness to change their car, because they are VW damn it we do it better, is why they have always been a niche player after the Beetle. Every other non Americas car company figured a way to make it work. Just my opinion of course.
Sorry lexaal I get the oh ffs attitude given the possible ramifications but I do believe they deserve the 10 billion USD thump. Going out of business, no, splitting the up, no, the decade long hatefest sure to follow, no, and the endless Nazi/VW jokes $#@! no.
To REALLY ruin your day read the ICCT report, good Jalopnik has a link, where they tested 36 Diesel engines to Euro 6 ( still much higher then US) using the WLTC test all fail but one.
VW is $#@!ed in China given Beijing 6 is so hard to meet gasoline vehicles struggle with it. Diesel engines probably cannot meet it with present tech unless use they the old VW method. I'm speculating of course and may be all wet.
The Chrysler 1500 3L Diesel Truck meets the standard VW 2L cannot and did it first time out. Hell the larger more powerful Diesel trucks being offered meet it now as far as I know and the 2L VW cannot still even after a decade... well to be fair they did have to cover the lie.
Europe had a separate segment called "Large passenger and light duty truck"until Euro 5 is still being implemented in some parts of Europe. If I undetstand right many years after the software switch was implemented here. Also the laws are so byzantine now I cannot figure them out without an effort I'm unwilling to go through but would listen to the details. I cannot tell what is or is not in what class tbc.
VW brought a Diesel engine knowing full well it couldn't meet Tier 2 and simply lied rather than doing something about fixing it. That unwillingness to change their car, because they are VW damn it we do it better, is why they have always been a niche player after the Beetle. Every other non Americas car company figured a way to make it work. Just my opinion of course.
Sorry lexaal I get the oh ffs attitude given the possible ramifications but I do believe they deserve the 10 billion USD thump. Going out of business, no, splitting the up, no, the decade long hatefest sure to follow, no, and the endless Nazi/VW jokes $#@! no.
To REALLY ruin your day read the ICCT report, good Jalopnik has a link, where they tested 36 Diesel engines to Euro 6 ( still much higher then US) using the WLTC test all fail but one.
Last edited by MrChaos on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ssssh
What Mr C said above is now being confirmed by (news)papers.
According to "Bild", a German paper, the BMW X3 xDrive may have 'cheatware'. ICCT measurements should indicate 11x higher emissions. If this is correct, it might be a bigger lie than VW.
A Spanish newspaper "El Pais" also points a finger to the brand "Seat", a VW subsidiary.
According to "Bild", a German paper, the BMW X3 xDrive may have 'cheatware'. ICCT measurements should indicate 11x higher emissions. If this is correct, it might be a bigger lie than VW.
A Spanish newspaper "El Pais" also points a finger to the brand "Seat", a VW subsidiary.