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189 Dutchies...

Sec Of State Opstelten "plane in all probability shot down, we must exactly know what happened".

Propaganda machine running overtime.

Normal, non-Russian backed militias generally are equipped with missile systems capable of shooting down airliners at high cruising altitudes, yes?

The "Mostly Implausible Deniability" at play here sickens me.

I can be possible.

Look, the separatists may captured an Ukrainian SAM system. It's also possible that the Ukraine military didn't upgrade the system in the past decade, so it's also possible that some old soviet veterans/ex-Ukraine military personal can operate these systems.



Right now everything is speculation and every side tries to blame the others.

Would be pitiable for the separatists, if the SBU didn't fake that phone call.

Who says its a fake. Russia controlled news media?

We will find out the truth in good time.

Rebels are holding back OVSE international observers. Dutch reporters on the site report chaotic scene, poorly trained and inexperienced rescue workers. A few miles further fighting is going on. The flight boxes seem "missing", Lavrov says Russia won't take control of the boxes. And some "secret guy" took the audio tapes from the traffic control.

In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.
Winston Churchill.

Some of you commented on the line of countryman and others, I didn't expect that from you.
You moan about equality but then separate by nationality. Lame.
I noticed the same thing when some of you talk about Palestine, Syria, Libya, Iran...
I thought that alleg community is wiser.
300 people died, 80 children afair. There's no nationality difference in victims of war. There are only great scars on their families.

DusanC wrote:QUOTE (DusanC @ Jul 18 2014, 04:07 PM) Some of you commented on the line of countryman and others, I didn't expect that from you.
You moan about equality but then separate by nationality. Lame.
I noticed the same thing when some of you talk about Palestine, Syria, Libya, Iran...
I thought that alleg community is wiser.
300 people died, 80 children afair. There's no nationality difference in victims of war. There are only great scars on their families.

In case part of the above was meant for me:

I had been hearing on the local radio (driving from place to place during work) that there were American deaths. During a short break waiting for parts to show up during yet another long work day I took a moment to read the forums and wondered why Peet's source didn't mention the US casualiities. Having only a few moments I went to google, picked a English website for some perpspective and came up with there were US casualties. I gave my update to th numbers including the phone intercept thinking it was new information. Frankly the fact the US casualties were not mentioned was odd to me but knowing Peet I could not believe there was anything deeper to it. It was why I asked the question

Only this morning when I spent time reading did I get more of the details including the fact that there is no official death toll for the US as of my AM. Honestly it gives me a bit of a pause and I can only hope there isn't more to the story. I then made a post mentioning to Peet my condolences for the large number of his country men that died. To Peet it is a national tragedy given my reading of his posts and why I gave him my regards was all. I'm not ranking the victims by my country of preference... simply trying to understand the details.

I also realized that I ran to a conclusion without spending more time waiting for more details to emerge and clarity to emerge.

Hope that clears up any misunderstanding

I agree that the pain is universal no matter what country the passengers lived in. I meant no disrespect to the others.

My reading of the situation.

Russians have supplied the rebels with SAM systems and some undercover special forces to operate them to lessen the effectiveness of Ukrainean air power. The BUK system was operating without a full radar network (duh) and the rebels thought they were shooting down an Ukrainean military transport plane.

The Ukrainean government has no motive and no need to be shooting down planes, as the rebels have no air support. Russia would be crazy to do this, and proper military air defence would know it was a passenger liner (so it would have to be deliberate, again, no motive and a world of reasons not to do it). To me that just leaves the rebels, but quite likely with Russian supplied gear.

Outside bet is rebels using captured Ukrainean gear.