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TurkeyXIII wrote:QUOTE (TurkeyXIII @ Oct 16 2012, 10:38 PM) Exit angle is random, and independent of entry angle.

You say this but Im sure that entering alephs not at centre can put you in a non-centre exit while going centre entry you exit centre.

I will do some testing tomorrow.

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Oct 16 2012, 06:22 PM) Imagine if that tactic was used in the early game - which is the most important part of a game, the first 10 minutes or so - you will not have have tech available to be able to deal with that

Doesn´t seem useful as an early game tactic, because there are a lot of empty sectors and unprotected alephs. You just can go another way around. Or just choose another objective.

I would say that the carrier strat is a useful defensive tactic when you get cornered. And at that point the other team has map dominance, and can tech up to res, heavy cons, or capital ships.

Thinking it over, you can also send a carrier through the aleph to destroy the carrier block. Anyone care to test it some slow evening?

I have no opinion on this matter.

HSharp wrote:QUOTE (HSharp @ Oct 17 2012, 11:30 AM) You say this but Im sure that entering alephs not at centre can put you in a non-centre exit while going centre entry you exit centre.

CODE89 Orientation alephOrientation = pwarpDest->GetOrientation();
90 const Vector& v = m_pShip->GetVelocity();
91 float speed2 = v.LengthSquared();
92 float speed = float(sqrt(speed2));
93 if (speed2 > 0)
94 {
95 float error;
96 {
97 //How close is the ship coming to the center of the warp?
98 Vector dp = pwarp->GetPosition() - m_pShip->GetPosition();
99
100 float t = (dp * v) / speed2;
101 float d = (dp - t * v).LengthSquared();
102 float r = pwarp->GetRadius();
103
104 error = (d / (r*r)) + 0.125f; //Error ranges from 0.125 to 1.125
105 // yp: to prevent 'spin of death' in massive ships.
106 // This works and is explained in that the more massive the ship the less effect going through the aleph should have
107 // on its rotational velocity. The massive amount of inertia should decrease changes in rotational velocity.
108 if(m_pShip->GetMass() > 300.0f)
109 {
110 error = error * (300.0f / m_pShip->GetMass()); // the greater the mass is above 750 the less error will be applied.
111 }
112 // yp end
113 }
114
115 alephOrientation.Pitch(random(-error, error));
116 alephOrientation.Yaw(random(-error, error));
117
118 m_pShip->SetCurrentTurnRate(c_axisRoll,
119 m_pShip->GetCurrentTurnRate(c_axisRoll) +
120 random(pi * 0.5f * error, pi * 1.5f * error)); //Must be less than 2.0 * pi
121 }
122 m_pShip->SetOrientation(alephOrientation);
Oh hey, you're right - the further from the center of the aleph you hit, the bigger the boundaries on the random direction you get sent out at.

I have no opinion on this matter.

If the global aleph exit speed bump is a core value, it would be nice to test if lowering it would allow a bomber to go through at minimum speed.

Even if you can enter the aleph, it will be easy for enemy pilots to ram you back in. The difference is that it would require a pilot with sufficient skill to do so. And there would be some risk associated with the move (you could miss the ram or you could die). Using the carrier is a no risk move that's very potent.

Obviously you can use aleph res, you can push a carrier of your own and so on, but as it mastametz pointed out the cost of the counter tactics doesn't quite compare to just parking a carrier.

The fact is that RT did this in a squadgame in a very standard scenario;
we pushed an outpost to the sector next to his tac base and bombed. They used the carrier exploit and bomber just bounced back out, I tried going in tree times (at slightly differnet angles) as close to 0 mps as i could, but just bounced out again. Every time you bounce out you have to turn the bomber around 180 degrees.
In the end we had to wait until the ints were able to kill the carrier before we could bomb.

In the end, it's a REALLY effective way to stop bomb runs. You can use it instead of probing a dangerous sector (the carrier will buy you enough time to get everyone home), you can use carrier + a couple of nans to stop enemy counter bombs. It's a very common squad game scenario where both teams have bombers and the trick is to be able to hit a target and get home fast to stop.

I know that the exploit has been around for ages, but I haven't seen it in a long time, and never in a squad game. The only fair thing is to make sure everyone knows about it and uses it until it's fixed. Or view it as the same kind of exploit as putting probes inside enemy bases.

One of the problems is that carriers are large drones with high mass. If you lower the mass, it couldn't slow down that close after exiting the aleph. Back in 2000 carriers had only a tenth of their current mass (after DN 00.02.17: 50000, before DN 00.02.17: 5000).

One-Man-Bucket wrote:QUOTE (One-Man-Bucket @ Oct 17 2012, 12:47 PM) Every time you bounce out you have to turn the bomber around 180 degrees.

Trust backwards...

lol

pkk hop in a game, and load a bomber, i will engage in carrier defense and watch you attempt as many times asa you like to enter

Look at the bright side.... Carriers are seldom used in SG. This can bring them back to the golden ages.

It is incredible that this game still allows to invent new tactics after 10 years. I think the game provides enough tools to counter it, if you are willing to use them.

I would vote to keep the things as they are, and see how it plays out. Maybe it is not so difficult to counter if you are prepared for it, and use the correct tools. Right now, people are using the hammer, and crying because the hammer doesn´t work ("I can´t get in with my bomber! Recode the game so I can get in with my bomber!"). Well, use another tool from the toolbox. Adjustments can be done later if it turns out to be too powerful.

But if we start coding out every new tactic, we are really not encouraging much creative thinking... In my case, I consider that defeating the carrier block is a new challenge. I like new challenges.

I'd like to see what kind of effect you'd get by reducing the mass of the carrier. It's currently 1000 times (!) the mass of a (empty) bomber, which makes pushing it out of the way impossible.