Greece - demise of the eurozone as we know it?

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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

djrbk wrote:QUOTE (djrbk @ May 24 2012, 06:28 AM) Eh easy solution. Have Germany take total domination over the EU. Make the fourth Reich a fiscal one, in the true spirits of liberal capitalism.
Better yet Germany can withdraw from the Euro.

mcwarren4 wrote:QUOTE (mcwarren4 @ May 24 2012, 01:34 PM) I got it... maybe we should ask the Greeks to pay reparations to Egypt for the Wars of Alexander the Great. The whole line of logic just keeps leading us backward into history. There is a group in the US that actually wants African governments to pay reparations for their part in the slave trade.
The difference is clear

"Indeed, the London debt agreement deferred settlement of the reparations question – including the repayment of war debts and contributions imposed by Germany during the war – to a conference to be held after unification. This conference never took place: since 1990, the Germans have steadfastly refused to reopen this can of worms. "

Why hasn't the conference never taken place?
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

Thank you HJ_KG and this is what so many fail to grasp. The detail.

At the end of the day I bring up war reparations and the way Germany's debts were dealt with as a means to show the hypocrisy out there vis a vis why Greeks (and others in trouble in the eurozone) racked up debt and how Germany's debt (to try conquer Europe, Russia even the USA!) and how differently the USA dealt with Germany to how Germany is dealing with Greece for what is effectively and in large part a EURO structural problem.

Bailout isn't even a correct word, the whole way this has been fed to the mass of people out there is amazing.
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

Playing chicken with Greece
http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-busin...0524-1z7c9.html

Germany 'holds gun to Greece's head'
http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-busin...0524-1z665.html

very good articles for the state of play at the moment

It's not just Greece

'Latin bloc'

The summit was a polite showdown between Germany and an emerging "Latin Bloc" led by France, Italy and Spain, determined to force a change in the Europe's strategic direction. The Latin coalition wants eurobonds to kickstart growth and mutualise debts, anathema to Germany, as well as EMU-wide deposit guarantees and an activist ECB. Chancellor Angela Merkel has ruled out eurobonds, although there could still be room for project bonds or short-term "euro-bills".

Spanish leader Mariano Rajoy warned that spiralling borrowing costs were pushing his country towards the brink. "Europe has to come up with an answer because we can't go on like this for long," he said. Mr Rajoy said austerity efforts were being overwhelmed by the force of the crisis, blaming the ECB for failure to contain contagion by capping yields.

"The policies that we Europeans believe in, such as controlling state spending and reforms to boost growth, ultimately have no effect," he said in Paris after a pre-summit tete-a-tete with French president Francois Hollande. Their encounter is itself evidence of Europe's changing dynamics, a break with the tradition of Franco-German axis.
Last edited by TheCorsair on Thu May 24, 2012 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

Great policies the Troika has!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/2...althcare-crisis

Under pressure from its "troika" of international creditors at the EU, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund, Athens amalgamated 13 social security funds into one body – the National Organisation for Healthcare Provision (EOPYY) – after being first propped up with rescue loans in May 2010.

But the pharmaceutical association, with 12,000 members, says the funds were unified "so violently" in the space of a year, with donations either not forthcoming or drying up completely, that NOPF quickly collapsed.

A fifth straight year of recession, which will have seen the Greek economy contract by around 27% by the end of 2012, had also had a devastating effect, said Karageorgiou.

From one of the comments
Greece is just the beginning as Tsipras has warned. If the Greeks are left to in conditions of extreme deprivation, the capitalist institutions responsible for it will just move to new targets, Spain, Italy, Ireland . . . . a sort of Masque of the Red Death of social destruction, with no safe havens for anyone, including the French and the Germans. If the Greeks were so profligate, why did the French and the Germans keep lending to them? For outsized fees, investment returns and exports, obviously, and now that they have been exhausted, the Greeks can be dumped into the dustbin. For those interested in seeing an allegorical representation of the future, the Roger Corman film version of Masque is quite good.


and

This story alone should be enough to make the Germans relent and embrace monetary activism. The Greeks aren't blameless of course but it was the structural imbalances in the euro zone that allowed an unproductive country access to too much easy credit which also delivered Germany a massive trade surplus by allowing them to trade in a currency worth less than the Deutschmark would have been. Some humility is due from Germany. Not the first time the beneficiary of an unbalanced market kids themselves their relative success was all down to their own fincial prescience.
Last edited by TheCorsair on Thu May 24, 2012 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Adept
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Post by Adept »

TheCorsair wrote:QUOTE (TheCorsair @ May 24 2012, 11:51 AM) I am not a Greek expat...you can't get even that right.
You keep talking in the sense of "us greeks" and you live in Australia. What are we supposed to think?
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ May 24 2012, 08:42 PM) You keep talking in the sense of "us greeks" and you live in Australia. What are we supposed to think?
Where have I said "us Greeks"?

and what does my nationality have to do with anything?

Maybe I was born in Australia... maybe I'm blonde haired and blue eyed? Maybe I'm a Chinaman from Moscow?
Last edited by TheCorsair on Thu May 24, 2012 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Adept »

Ok, let's play this game for a while.

If you're an Australian with no links to Europe, why do you make so much noise about it? Why do you specifically care about what is happening in Greece, and complain about the lack of reparations for WW-II?
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ May 24 2012, 08:48 PM) Ok, let's play this game for a while.

If you're an Australian with no links to Europe, why do you make so much noise about it? Why do you specifically care about what is happening in Greece, and complain about the lack of reparations for WW-II?
Why do people in the USA talk about the Euro crisis, why is the global media talking about the euro crisis

Why do americans talk about making Kony famous

Why do people care about Antactica?

No I would rather discuss real issues and not play a game with the likes of you who makes mockery of these. Blocked


First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)



This is Genocide. How will Merkel defend this? That Greek people deserve to die; because they are profligates. How can this be happening in Europe again? Why arent Obama, and Hollande, and other Western leaders speaking out against this? Where are the journalists demanding questions from our so called Western Democracies?? If this can be done to Greece...it can eventually be done to France, UK, America etc. If you arent scared you should be..if you think it cant happen here..first they came for the Communists..then they came for the Gypsies...Homosexuals...Jews..etc..most people living in Germany did nothing while Hitler systematically went after one group after the other..knowing full well most people wouldnt care if it did not affect them directly...this could be you 5 years from now...not being able to get your cancer mediation...wake up people ....what do they have planned is this social cleansing...is this what the bankers have in store for the rest of us eventually when all the credit runs dry...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comme...malink/16274932
Last edited by TheCorsair on Thu May 24, 2012 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Adept »

You've made your partisan viewpoint pretty clear. Wouldn't it be more honest to come clean on where your perspective comes from?



/edit not that it matters very much. I just don't see why it's a secret.
Last edited by Adept on Thu May 24, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

The conditions of the next €130bn rescue package will be severe, yet there is an elephant in the room: the extent to which the German but also the French military industries rely on Greece.

Professor Varoufakis believes: "The EU and IMF keep giving loans to Greece to stop it going bankrupt, but countries such as Germany need to justify this to voters, hence the demand for spending cuts. But with Greece being such a crucial arms customer, it only takes a phone call to the German government from an armaments manufacturer to ensure that Greece's military budget stays intact."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business...ns-6257753.html


Greek politicians are endeavouring to come to an arrangement with the Troika this weekend over the next tranche of bail-out loans needed to stave off a Greek exit from the Euro. Whilst it is widely reported that Angela Merkel is keen to ensure that Greece remains in the Eurozone, there is a key reason why Germany stands to benefit from Greece securing further loans, that is rarely reported on. The German armament industry will continue to be a major beneficiary of Greek spending if Greece avoids a Eurozone exit.

As austerity measures are loaded on the Greek people, creating a crisis situation that few Greeks apart from the wealthy elite are untouched by, the Greek government remains committed to its extravagant spending on armaments, making it the fourth-largest importer of arms in the world. Bail-out loans received by the Greek government are used to purchase arms from Germany, the U.S. and France.
As Press Europ points outs "the main beneficiary of the Greek armament programme in Europe turns out to be its savings champion, Germany." Moreover, there is reportedly pressure placed on Greece to honor existing armament contracts and commit to new ones, by dominant European leaders Angela Merkel and Nikolas Sarkozy.

Spectrazine summed up the arms situation succinctly when it said "It is thus clear that the ever-increasing bail-outs are in reality, directly or indirectly, consecrated to the purchase of arms."

The media and many commentators has hurled criticism and accusations on the Greek people, blaming a lazy, work-shy populace for overspending, refusing to pay taxes and indulging in the Mediterranean habit of siestas. Even those who engage in demonstrations against the increasingly austere austerity measures give little voice to the fact that Greek spending on weapons is ridiculously over the top for the size of the country. When the issue is raised the excuse given is that it is necessary to counter the threat of Turkey, a NATO partner. According to the Jerusalem Post Greece is the second largest recipient of German weapon imports, after Turkey.

The situation is not a new one. In Oct. 2010 the JP reported that German and French leaders were accused of "obliging Greece to maintain arms sales negotiations with their countries before agreeing to financial aid" as they wanted to make money off the back of Greeks.

If the current negotiations to secure the next bail-out loans needed by March 20, for the much touted reason of saving Greece's position within the euro, then Germany and other weapon exporters stand to benefit. However in order for the orders to keep flowing the Greek people will continue in servitude to unelected European masters who continue to demand yet further austerity and sacrifice.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/318237#ixzz1vmm0lZ4M
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