Questions about how to create models

[madpeople]

QUOTE (KGJV @ Mar 3 2012, 09:12 PM) At this point I already warned everyone to stop using Milkshape and the plugin but , well, human and habits, you know...

Actually it's because they don't really have a working alternative...
QUOTE Stick to the MSR tools. period.

The last stage (4) is where the mdl/cvh are generated and , since we're using the MSR tools, it requires using .X file format. But before that, any tool or format can be used as long as in the end they can be converted without lose.[/quote]
I did manage to get the .x -> mdl conversion working with the MS tools once, but then my computer crashed and I lost my working tool chain.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as just passing a .x file to mdlc / xmunge or the original MS .bat files in the source. Well, it is if you try to convert the .x files in the MS source, but they use an old format for .x files. Files from modern .x file exporters didn't work too well. I managed to get it working by comparing the layout of the MS .x files with the ones from my exporter and writing a program to convert from the new layout to the old (the old layout had a name but I don't remember what it was). After converting from new to old layout I think I abused the flattening functionality of xmunge(?) to make a .x file to feed into a heavily edited version of the MS .bat file for conversion.

Anyway, it was a lot of work and I didn't manage to get things working again after the crash (the crash occurred while zipping the working tool chain for distribution - irony much?).
As it stands I don't believe there are any guides about on how to use the MS tools to convert .x to .mdl, and certainly not do it elegantly or using modern .x formats.

@compellor
I remember seeing mdlEdit's LOD slider working on some of my converted models - I was playing with multiple LODs in an mdl file so I used some extreme numbers.

[Adaven]

Mad hit the nail on the head. Spreading the work among several people is great, but we need someone (preferably several) who can do each step. We also need clear instructions on how to do each stage (especially #4) so that new people who want to get involved actually can.

I've slashed & burned the old Creating models for Allegiance wiki article and moved Orion's milkshape tutorial somewhere else. Feel free to update each stage with whatever information you have about them.

[KGJV]

QUOTE (madpeople @ Mar 4 2012, 03:24 PM) Unfortunately it's not as simple as just passing a .x file to mdlc / xmunge or the original MS .bat files in the source. Well, it is if you try to convert the .x files in the MS source, but they use an old format for .x files. Files from modern .x file exporters didn't work too well. I managed to get it working by comparing the layout of the MS .x files with the ones from my exporter and writing a program to convert from the new layout to the old (the old layout had a name but I don't remember what it was). After converting from new to old layout I think I abused the flattening functionality of xmunge(?) to make a .x file to feed into a heavily edited version of the MS .bat file for conversion.

I wasn't aware of that and I'm not an expert in modeling and 3D file formats.

But we do have the source code of the MSR tools and we can change or fix them if they're not working correctly with modern modeling software.

This is a typical 'Chicken or the egg' situation added to lack of correct information broadcasting:

Most people are not aware of the tools and are told to use the Milkshape plugin.
The few who try the tools either find it too complex or are stuck by .X File compatibly issues. they stop using the tools but do not inform the dev team about the problem.

Now things we can do. I see 2 main tasks here:

I'm aware that the MSR tools are complex to use and that's is why I recommended having other people doing that 4th stage. People that are skilled at scripting and file manipulation.
Simplifying the tools so that a larger audience can use them is probably something worth doing. Documenting them also, Ada just started this.

If dealing with .X file format is an issue for 'art people' than we need to find a replacement for it or at least find an intermediate format to use between stage 3 & 4.
A format that is commonly accepted by everyone as a 'standard' (if such thing exist in 3D modeling? Collada may be? any experts in here?), a format that most modeling software can produce without installing addon or 3rd party module. A format that can support the 'meta' informations needed for Allegiance (directly or with a 'trick' like with .X format).
Once that format chosen we can write a conversion tool that will take this format a produce 'clean .X file(s)' for the MSR tools.
Other way of doing this would be to rewrite the MSR tools so they use directly that new format but I foresee too much work for the same result (at least for now).

The required skill set is more around scripting for these tasks but if you need C++/Allegiance engine expertise (MSR Tools share code with Allegiance engine) I'd be happy to help.

But like always with projects, small or big, we do need someone to carry it , a project manager that will lead the way. otherwise this will just be yet another forum discussion and the 'deja vu' feeling won't go away...

so 1st step is to ask MrC to find a volunteer for this I guess ? (or 2 , one for each tasks and they'll coordinate stuff together).

[pkk]

Kage, I only seen 3-4 people, who could do this. All of them already posted in this topic...

Yourself
Madpeople
YP

Someone should step up, no need to ask MrC.

[madpeople]

I haven't really touched models in about 5 years so I can't comment on formats. I know that .x wasn't a hugely popular format 5 years ago, there is probably another format that could be used but you would need to ask someone who knows modern tools.

I know the .x files that 3ds max exported would open ok in the DX SDK tools (and .x files in the DX SDK also wouldn't go through the MS tools to become .mdl) - could mdlc call the functions in the DX SDK to read a .x file?

speaking of de-ja-vu
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=41639
also relevant:
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=22740
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=29534
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=43477

more de-ja-vu
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=44463

[KGJV]

yeah lots of 'deja vu'. There are some good infos in these topics that should be curated and put in the wiki.

AMT2 is dead and buried long ago. 90% of its complexity was to code a 3D editing system which already exists in all 3D modeling software...no point really.
It's very complex to do and was puzzling me till I found out about an article explaining 3D attractors and other stuff.
Once I understood how to do it, the immensity of the task to actually code it wasn't worth the result...
Also I'm now convinced that allowing to read MDL/CVH is a bad thing, it's like decompiling EXEs... MDL/CVH are final, compiled formats. you don't want to read them, only to write them.

So it's better to work at a higher level with mainstream modeling software and then send the digital assets into a processing pipeline (one-way pipeline).
That's how all games are built these days and there is a good reason for that.

Pkk, I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. The leader I'm talking about isn't the person who would actually DO the work. It's a team work.
That is why not much is done here these days because people assume that those who can DO will do. And then they just wait for them to do...
It's a bad habit we have in this community and I'm responsible in part for this. I used to do it all too but that only work when you have plenty of spare time to spend.
And it's not healthy for the project anyway.

So we need someone to LEAD 1st , that someone will find the people who would DO the actual work but before he will discuss and specify fully what to do.

[pkk]

Blender (GPLv2) supports already many formats, including 3ds, Softimage and DirectX files...

Blender community offers also scripts to reduce polygon count, and so on.

Overall I have no clue about modeling...

[Adaven]

My experience is pretty limited, but +1 for adding Blender to the "recommended" tool set. Free, large community, & lots of format options.

[Weedman]

Let me ask you this

If you figure out the .x to .mdl problems, do you suppose the .x file milkshape can export to is adequate for you to use in your process
says directx, 8.0

[Imago]

QUOTE (madpeople @ Mar 4 2012, 08:24 AM) lost my working tool chain.

you had a dx7 linked version of the artbuild tools i made a while back using VC6 and the Makefiles.