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BillyBishop
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Post by BillyBishop »

Camaro wrote:QUOTE (Camaro @ May 3 2011, 05:30 AM) I believe the last two times we tried you were a part of the British Empire.

Your Queen won't save you this time!
She's still our Queen you yank scum. :P


And all we need is a corgie or two from her and we'll whip your entire armed forces. :D
BillyBishop
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Post by BillyBishop »

djrbk wrote:QUOTE (djrbk @ May 3 2011, 07:45 AM) Sooo, this election result has me pleased in virtually every possible facet.

- No more minority government.
This is horrible right now btw, you'll find this out shortly when Harper does his best to ensure democracy is limited in the next coming months, with his plan to eliminate party subsidies and of course a seperate ministry to promote religion. I thought I hated Mulroney until this clown Harper came along.



djrbk wrote:QUOTE (djrbk @ May 3 2011, 07:45 AM) - Green getting a seat (mehn, but still cool)
It's very kewl, it's a sad state of affairs when a million people vote Green and they get pissed on.

I'm not a fan of the Greens (federally) though am very very happy that May got elected, and I hope she gets some friends with her next time. Random note, Laytons end of election night speech, the biggest appaluse from the ND crowd was when he congratulated May on her win. Now that's class.
Camaro
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Post by Camaro »

RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 3 2011, 02:21 PM) with his plan to eliminate party subsidies.
Eliminate party subsidies? What will all your frat boys do now?
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BillyBishop
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Post by BillyBishop »

You have to understand most democracies have a party subsidy program in order to stimulate a more fair electoral system. In Canada there were more stringent limits placed on donations from big business and unions, the subsidy was added at that time, it amounts to $2 per vote per year, so roughly $35 million dollars a year which is pretty cheap for a democracy.

This is actually a very huge problem that is going to devastate the other parties, the Conservatives are doing this because they will be able to shrug of the loss since they've always been a fairly rich party getting large corporate donations, the other parties gain a majority of their funding from individual donations and the subsidy.

It's also worth noting that it's been convention to only change the way donations are recieved by political parties by consensus, until now. With the Conservatives in a majority position to ram this through, the only thing that can stop them is a public outcry, and I'm not sure the electorate will be smart and knowledgeable of how things work to be effective- your post in point.
LANS
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Post by LANS »

RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 3 2011, 08:11 PM) The basics of it are the Layton speaks French well, he's upbeat, friendly, and supportive of French issues.
He panders to the separatists and socialists in the same breath. He has some great ideas for improving Canada's government socialist programs, but doesn't seem to have thought through how they will be financed with the current tax structure. Also, the Conservatives can't ignore the official opposition if they are a national party (NDP). They can ignore the Bloc, because they are a one-issue (separatist) party and Quebec doesn't vote conservative.

QUOTE The people that voted for the NDs in Quebec aren't federalists all, and the BQ will be back though I doubt it'll get back to it's former "glory" anytime soon. The Conservatives primarily gained a small majority by having the vote split in certain ridings and that maininly in Ontario, having said that they are slightly more popular- or are they, many people that are small L liberals voted Conservative in a bizzare attempt to top the NDs from gaining too much ground.[/quote]

I'm more worried about the BQ support shifting to the provincial separatist party, resulting in a surge in separatist MPPs in the next provincial election.

QUOTE The Greens mainly lost support for two reasons, being blocked from the national debates by scum sucking network pigs that deserve to be rapped by diseased camels, and that much of their support went to the NDs to catch the wave- in fairness most of the Green vote that switch over is probably in ridings where it didn't matter (much), and probably will switch back unless there is an ND incombant.[/quote]

Bitter much? In the current FPTP system, voting Green is a waste of your vote, outside of May's riding. Although she still should have been in the leader's debate.

QUOTE ... Dion had some very good ideas but frankly was a total lame duck that spoke worse then Cretin-head, and then there was ignat- who while probably is a really great Canadian that just came across as if he wasn't Canadian. Plus of course the Conservative attack ads, being mean works and I blame you Americans for infecting mr.cuddly harper (hah!).[/quote]

Dion had great ideas? Did you even read the Green Shift? Even if (in the unlikely possibility) that the tax structure was modified so that no increased tax was paid by citizens, there would be a net government revenue loss in increased tax administration costs during the transition.
There's no such thing as a "no new tax" tax modification. Taxes are increased, every time, always. Except for pork tax cuts, which are inefficient and rarely effective.

As far as supporting Dion's environmental policies, there are better ways of reducing pollution than carbon tax with a consumer rebate. But that debate belongs in the climate change thread buried around here somewhere.

Every party runs attack ads, and pulling out the "They made him look like a meany!" argument makes you look like a fool. Every election comes with attack ads on all sides, and blaming the attack ads for your loss means you are blaming your own party's advertising staff for your loss.

The Liberals have spent too long riding on the "Natural Governing Party" line, which btw, originated with William Lyon Mackenzie King who spent 22 years as Prime Minister. I'm not against the Liberals on any basis other than ineptness in this last election, but they really need to reorganize, stop relying on past results as a reason to vote for them, and put forward a simplified platform which can be accepted by most of the country.
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BillyBishop
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Post by BillyBishop »

QUOTE Bitter much? In the current FPTP system, voting Green is a waste of your vote, outside of May's riding. Although she still should have been in the leader's debate.[/quote]

Roughly $7 million dollars? I think the Greens are quite happy that they have the ability to take the 600-900 thousand votes they get in an election and use the subsidy to advance their views- Canadian views, sometimes whacked and sometimes on point.

And the only vote wasted is the one that isn't used.
djrbk
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Post by djrbk »

RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 3 2011, 08:21 PM) This is horrible right now btw, you'll find this out shortly when Harper does his best to ensure democracy is limited in the next coming months, with his plan to eliminate party subsidies and of course a seperate ministry to promote religion. I thought I hated Mulroney until this clown Harper came along.
Those are all pretty 'mehn' issues. Talk economy, infrastructure, and social services (healthcare/education funding) and then its more interesting. Its pretty well impossible to $#@! everything up as Canada's PM, this country isn't exactly known for bounding changes regardless of who's in charge.


RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 3 2011, 08:21 PM) It's very kewl, it's a sad state of affairs when a million people vote Green and they get pissed on.
Green is retarded under May imo. She turned it into a hippyfest. They used to be my favourite party platform-wise when they were clean and business sound/righter than conservative right-wing.






_________________________________

So I have a question. Background: Whiney bitches being all "this guy has a majority with less than 50% of the popular vote".. (which is pretty much a "no duh" when there are 5 parties running due to the voter split)... I am wondering who the last PM who had over 50% of the vote was? Cretin had a 37% popular vote majority govt running at a time iirc. Trudeau was minority for basically his entire run. Martin = no dice.. Mulroney? *shrugs*. My google-fu is failing me and I want to counter-troll some people running useless campaigns. Plz assist.
FreeBeer
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Post by FreeBeer »

RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 3 2011, 11:25 PM) This is actually a very huge problem that is going to devastate the other parties, the Conservatives are doing this because they will be able to shrug of the loss since they've always been a fairly rich party getting large corporate donations, the other parties gain a majority of their funding from individual donations and the subsidy.
That's just plain wrong. The Conservatives get the vast majority of their contributions from individuals. It's the Liberals who got their funding from big business (and the NDP from union coffers). Cretien's plan to limit those corporate donations was (my opinion) a landmine/poison pill he left to make Martin's life miserable.
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BillyBishop
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Post by BillyBishop »

Freebeer it's not just plain wrong.

While it's true that all political parties get the vast majority of their funds from individuals, and that at this moment the Conservatives happen to be one of the more popular parties and as such would get a lot of individual donations, the Conservatives get a lot of funding from corporations- more so than any other party. It's true the NDs get a lot of financing from labour, and for that matter Greens get quite a bit too, though it's not near the levels of corporate donations that are handed out primarily to the Conservatives.

Election Financing (annual);


Party | Subsidy | Donations | Est. Post 2011 Subsidy Loss

Conservatives $10.4m | $17.70m | -48.5% / -46.6m
Liberal $ 7.2m | $9.06m | -53.3% / -22.3m
New Democrat $ 5.0m | 4.01m | -34.9% / -36.1m
Bloc $2.7m | $0.62m | -50.1% / -8.1m
Green $1.9m | $1.12m | -57.1% / -6.1m



On the surface it can be said that the Conservatives lose the most, of course that isn't really the case, the Liberals lose the most and effectively go bankrupt without the subsidy, the Green party will have the hardest time of all to replace that financing though the Bloc could have the same problems, the New Democrats are likely cushioned from their dramatic election results and likely have a larger outpouring of contributions.

Overall the Conservatives are in fine position, as they've typically used their position as governement in the last 7 years in partisan ways to boost the parties support amongst the electorate. Also for ever dollar they lose they take back almost twice as much from the other parties, so again they don't mind. Now keep in mind there are still other forms of political subsidies which people don't typically know about;




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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_polit...ncing_in_Canada




One last thing, on subsidy and incumbants, it's hard to take out a sitting MP, and typically involves more election expense for the chance. So even with everything said, any sitting MP is in a better position as well to a certain extent, and most of those are also Conservative.
Last edited by BillyBishop on Wed May 04, 2011 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FreeBeer
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Post by FreeBeer »

RoyBrown wrote:QUOTE (RoyBrown @ May 4 2011, 12:58 PM) One last thing, on subsidy and incumbants, it's hard to take out a sitting MP, and typically involves more election expense for the chance. So even with everything said, any sitting MP is in a better position as well to a certain extent, and most of those are also Conservative.

I'm at work atm, so I don't have time to respond right now.

Yes, it's true that incumbents tend to have an easier time in retaining their seat. So what? That's always been true. When the Liberals held the majority of seats the competing parties had to work very hard to take those incumbent seats from the Liberals. Now it's the Conservatives (and NDPs) turn to be incumbent and to have that little edge.

By the way, your numbers (assuming they're true) looks only at public funding. (If I read that right after a very quick scan.) I didn't see anything there about private contributions. I was talking about private contributions - you know - people voluntarily parting with their own after-tax dollars in support of a party they believe in (capped at $1100 per person, I believe). To me, that's the only way a party should raise money - if they have sufficiently enough appeal and support, then people will reach into their pocket $10, $25 and $100 at a time.
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