This will affect everyone but IC and Belters re: Vettes won't it?phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Nov 4 2009, 04:33 PM) SY is too cheap. I propose having a cheaper techbase and more expensive technology. I honestly feel required to go sup virtually every game SY is on for fear of having vettes in my back door, which I consider a problem because of how powerful Sup is.
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I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.
My apologies.
Hmm? Oh yeah, upgrading the light class would. I guess that's something to consider, maybe leave IC and Belters at 20k sy cons, or bumping them to 25k? It just feels like vettes are too easy to get, and it also feels like only sup can handle the corvettes. I know a lot of people like talking about Killers, but that requires sitting inside skycap range in an SF... not particularly smart, since a turret with decent SA can start firing at where the missiles are coming from and use area damage to take out the sfs.
Ints... well heavies with mini3 can take a good chunk out of a vette but really you'd need to commit more than 3 heavy ints per corvette. As for the "but you can camp" argument, I'm talking about being able to go on the offensive. It's very difficult to hit a miner that's being covered by a corvette, let alone two. So you end up in a situation where a competent pilot in a vette with two gunners and two nans (5 pilots, two of whom can be awful, two of whom can be just about anyone) will have an easy time defending miners against seven or eight basic ints (it's 30-35k for adv exp + heavies, 20-25k for corvettes, 5k for Skycap2) all of whom have to be moderately competent.
TL/DR:
Right now, sup (already the dominant techpath) is the only techpath that doesn't have an uphill battle against SY. Ergo, I feel SY should be nerfed back a bit.
Ints... well heavies with mini3 can take a good chunk out of a vette but really you'd need to commit more than 3 heavy ints per corvette. As for the "but you can camp" argument, I'm talking about being able to go on the offensive. It's very difficult to hit a miner that's being covered by a corvette, let alone two. So you end up in a situation where a competent pilot in a vette with two gunners and two nans (5 pilots, two of whom can be awful, two of whom can be just about anyone) will have an easy time defending miners against seven or eight basic ints (it's 30-35k for adv exp + heavies, 20-25k for corvettes, 5k for Skycap2) all of whom have to be moderately competent.
TL/DR:
Right now, sup (already the dominant techpath) is the only techpath that doesn't have an uphill battle against SY. Ergo, I feel SY should be nerfed back a bit.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Honestly, I haven't been noticing SY dominate, but I haven't had a game yet where I was exp or pure tac and facing SY. Perhaps that is the odd part about phoenix's example for me, it just seems to be ignoring the tremendous cost of the cap ships themselves and the tremendous weakness you have where they aren't.
I agree that Exp sucks against cap ships, and that Tac is poor, but it doesn't seem as extreme as is implied.
For Exp, I think the best solution is a tremendous buff to the Emp Cannons, and for Tac a minor buff to killers.
I agree that Exp sucks against cap ships, and that Tac is poor, but it doesn't seem as extreme as is implied.
For Exp, I think the best solution is a tremendous buff to the Emp Cannons, and for Tac a minor buff to killers.
I've not lost a game with capships yet. Spidey only lost one that I know of, and that was to a sup team which ended up getting its own capships. I think part of why you haven't seen capships dominating is everyone's afraid of their costs still.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
I haven't lost an IC MF rush yet, but they always go Exp so I don't wander about it too much 
Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
Yeah it's kind of funny to be all "I'm going IC exp........ YARD!" and having the other team WTF their mini1 ints (afraid you'd steal the tech) onto your PW damage/range 1 Skycap 2 missile frigates.
Hell, I did that to an tacspansion team that didn't even know I had a sy until one of my cruisers was bearing down on their tac. I can just imagine their teamchat. "WTF THEY HAVE CRUISERS?!?!"
Hell, I did that to an tacspansion team that didn't even know I had a sy until one of my cruisers was bearing down on their tac. I can just imagine their teamchat. "WTF THEY HAVE CRUISERS?!?!"
Last edited by zombywoof on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
I think that each tech path needs specific counters toward the others. In the days of yesterday it seemed to be more of a game of 'who can get hvy ints first' or 'who can get tp2 fbs first' or 'who can rush a mf first'. I'm really liking the fact that sy seems to be a more viable tech path now, but at the same time I'd definitely love to see more counters toward everything else.
Sup was and pretty much is the only counter to sy (dumbs almost always hit, galvs and dis3 do a good amount of damage) because of their mobility, deployment speed, and weapons. With exp, it's pretty $#@!ing hard to organize even a defensive cap-kill as your minis are not very effective and if you choose to put on an emp (since we've assumed you've researched that as a counter to their sy) it ONLY damages the shield. You can either organize it so the emp ints go first (and pray the gunners arent that smart) or everyone can put on a weapon thats effective for the first few shots (and pray your half or 2/3 damage potential will be enough to lower the hull into the negative) It's not feasible to use the emp then load a mini into that slot, since your ship will only survive a few seconds in the 'combat zone' even if it does come flying at the enemy like a bullet. I just don't like the way that is set up.
Granted, some should be more effective than others at certain things, and against an unorganized team when yours IS organized you should hand them their asses every time, but at the same time I'd like to see a team go exp only to realize the super ships they bought for chewing up other small ships aren't all that useful against a gigantic $#@!ing cum spewing deathboat with a pile of nubs on it and then have a way to counter that by researching something.... oh, maybe a little bit more useful than that pathetic pile of @#(! we call the EMP cannon. And killers are not very effective at all unless you've been camping an aleph and are backthrusting the moment the cap comes through (at some random angle) or you're all behind the aleph (which is odd considering that leaves you even further from what you're defending than the attackers, and that's bad). Seriously, sf are so ridiculously slow and unmaneuverable it's nigh impossible to use the weapons you have, let alone the fact that those weapons are pretty ineffective as is. 2/3 missiles, reload.... base/miner dead and shields on cap might be down if you had 5 buddies with you.
Granted, sf are not really built to fight caps, and neither are ints, and since figs are the 'all around' type ship, they tend to have something for everything... but even exp gets pps against tac, and prox vs sup.
My suggestion is to reduce the range or firepower on some of the smaller caps' weaponry. Instead of skycaps, give them ac or even miniac on a corvette... OR maybe tie in some of the weaponry upgrades to certain techbases, forcing them to have a tac for sc2 or something... justs brainstorming here. There's also the idea of creating a new weapon completely, maybe something like a skycap in damage but no area damage? I'm sure there's been 500 'new weapon' threads everywhere, so we don't need to go into detail, but it's definitely worth some thought in my book.
Sup was and pretty much is the only counter to sy (dumbs almost always hit, galvs and dis3 do a good amount of damage) because of their mobility, deployment speed, and weapons. With exp, it's pretty $#@!ing hard to organize even a defensive cap-kill as your minis are not very effective and if you choose to put on an emp (since we've assumed you've researched that as a counter to their sy) it ONLY damages the shield. You can either organize it so the emp ints go first (and pray the gunners arent that smart) or everyone can put on a weapon thats effective for the first few shots (and pray your half or 2/3 damage potential will be enough to lower the hull into the negative) It's not feasible to use the emp then load a mini into that slot, since your ship will only survive a few seconds in the 'combat zone' even if it does come flying at the enemy like a bullet. I just don't like the way that is set up.
Granted, some should be more effective than others at certain things, and against an unorganized team when yours IS organized you should hand them their asses every time, but at the same time I'd like to see a team go exp only to realize the super ships they bought for chewing up other small ships aren't all that useful against a gigantic $#@!ing cum spewing deathboat with a pile of nubs on it and then have a way to counter that by researching something.... oh, maybe a little bit more useful than that pathetic pile of @#(! we call the EMP cannon. And killers are not very effective at all unless you've been camping an aleph and are backthrusting the moment the cap comes through (at some random angle) or you're all behind the aleph (which is odd considering that leaves you even further from what you're defending than the attackers, and that's bad). Seriously, sf are so ridiculously slow and unmaneuverable it's nigh impossible to use the weapons you have, let alone the fact that those weapons are pretty ineffective as is. 2/3 missiles, reload.... base/miner dead and shields on cap might be down if you had 5 buddies with you.
Granted, sf are not really built to fight caps, and neither are ints, and since figs are the 'all around' type ship, they tend to have something for everything... but even exp gets pps against tac, and prox vs sup.
My suggestion is to reduce the range or firepower on some of the smaller caps' weaponry. Instead of skycaps, give them ac or even miniac on a corvette... OR maybe tie in some of the weaponry upgrades to certain techbases, forcing them to have a tac for sc2 or something... justs brainstorming here. There's also the idea of creating a new weapon completely, maybe something like a skycap in damage but no area damage? I'm sure there's been 500 'new weapon' threads everywhere, so we don't need to go into detail, but it's definitely worth some thought in my book.
Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ Oct 29 2009, 01:24 PM) I feel a great disturbance in the Force. As if hundreds of voobs cried out for nerfs, and were suddenly silenced.
Gothmog wrote:QUOTE (Gothmog @ Nov 5 2009, 09:33 AM) I'm really liking the fact that sy seems to be a more viable tech path now, but at the same time I'd definitely love to see more counters toward everything else.
WARNING - my post is about feeling and inclination so is devoid of numbers - read on if you wish to read my uninformed opinions/rants.
Personally I'm not liking SY as a viable techpath at the moment. The vast majority of the games I've played since CC07 came out involve SY, and in nearly every case the SY team won.
I don't particularly enjoy flying/turretting caps, and I don't really enjoy flying against them.
Turreting is an easy way to rack up kills, but for the majority of the time needs little thought, and is deathly dull after a while. If I wanted to just shoot moving targets all day, I'd have fired up space invaders for a blast.
Flying Capships is slooowww and ponderous, and consists of mostly just manoeuvring to the right position. Moving between sectors etc. is marginally less fun than watching paint dry.
Allegiance is a game of teamwork, and Caps make teamwork a lot easier by their nature, and this detracts from the necessity of teamwork for successful alleg.
Example - How difficult is it normally to get three different people in separate ships to sit on miner D for a while? How difficult is it to get a turreted corv to sit on miner D?
Flying against SY as Tac or Exp is difficult/nigh on impossible at the moment. If a Corv is on Miner D it's incredibly difficult to sneak a miner kill with SFs (which is supposed to be their main purpose) as you will die within seconds of being eyed, and as Gothmog says above Killing a Cap with ints is very difficult at the moment.
I'm not sure fine tuning it will work myself, I prefer the idea of SY as "Unstoppable end game tech if you have more money than god" and would be happy if I never saw them earlier than the hour mark in any game.
That's probably sounding a little ranting above, but the fact is I haven't enjoyed playing Alleg. as much in the past week or so with the extra usage of capships, and felt like saying it.
The majority of your peers wanted SY to be used more often in games though. While you disagree with it - it is something you will have to live with unless the majority of the community changes their mind on what they want SY to be.notjarvis wrote:QUOTE (notjarvis @ Nov 5 2009, 04:57 AM) I'm not sure fine tuning it will work myself, I prefer the idea of SY as "Unstoppable end game tech if you have more money than god" and would be happy if I never saw them earlier than the hour mark in any game.
Excellent commentary all keep it coming.
The more we have the more we can balance
I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.
My apologies.
We could change EMP so that it does equal level dis damage to cap hull. At the moment taking an EMP along vs. caps is barely useful, or not at all.
It may well be that this would make EMP armed ints too tough vs. caps, but one could then limit the EMP to gun slot one, so an anti cap heavy int would have one EMP and two minis.
/edit TL:DR EMP should probably be made useful vs. caps.
It may well be that this would make EMP armed ints too tough vs. caps, but one could then limit the EMP to gun slot one, so an anti cap heavy int would have one EMP and two minis.
/edit TL:DR EMP should probably be made useful vs. caps.
Last edited by Adept on Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<bp|> Maybe when I grow up I can be a troll like PsycH
<bp|> or an obsessive compulsive paladin of law like Adept