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There is also the team size to consider, given the scaling issues with Alleg. But once you have enough samples (perhaps 30-40 games of proper size for each faction + primary tech combo vs faction + primary tech combo) the importance of equally balanced games should diminish and you should get useful results. The major problem is deducing the "primary tech" as simple faction vs faction stats (even of the form Deng outlined) will not tell you much if, say, Dreg always goes exp, Belt always goes tac etc. because of balance problems

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Aug 18 2006, 04:36 PM) The major problem is deducing the "primary tech" as simple faction vs faction stats (even of the form Deng outlined) will not tell you much if, say, Dreg always goes exp, Belt always goes tac etc. because of balance problems

From what I've understood of Noir's design paradigm, he doesn't aim for each faction/techpath pairing to be viable against each other such pairing, shifting the focus more on the metagame aspect (i.e. "vs X always go Y"). While I personally (and from what I've seen in A+, so does Spunky) think this isn't a good path to walk down (as it naturally leads to reduced variability), it certainly is a valid approach, and would allow for simpler interpretation of win/loss statistics.

If it's possible, on a given level of abstraction, to equate "belts = belts tac" (sure, there'll be non-tac belters games, but in general they'll be negligible, because people use the strongest strat there is available, in general), these "general" win/loss stats will tell you more.

And again I state.

You don't like it? Go make your own and balance it your way. Stop criticizing what Noir has done and continues to do, instead put forth your own effort.

I applaud the GoD team for doing just that, so everyone leave each other alone, play their core and have fun.

I really like DN, and all the new cool things you can do over the original Allegiance. I think Noir is doing a wonderful job, and the same to all the other core developers who are making an effort. A lot of these forum topics such as 'this is cheese' or 'this is way too powerful'... well I'm sure there are some over-balances; I bet there always will be.

However not only is it unrealistic to dynamically update and change all the time, but it is also a pain. Stats for factions and ships can only be so varied before it becomes a chore to keep up. The more variation the better, to prevent the X counter Y as Denga pointed out. I actually think it is BETTER to leave the 'cheese' or the imbalance in for a little while. When one strategy pulls out a huge win, the gut reaction is that "it's too powerful", this is because you assume that it wouldn't work, read as: you underestimated it. Not necessarily the fault of the core.

Time should be taken for teams to experiment different strategies to counter these imbalances. Perfect examples include: "The UNBEATABLE TF SUP" from last year, or the infamous "IC EXP DOMINATES ALL" movements. Over time counters were developed to these (er, maybe), and so the players themselves took on the responsibility to fix the problem, using the tools that Noir's provided in the DN core. Perhaps things like Belters Tac or Giga Pattie/Carriers have been going on without any result in countering these strategies, at which point I'm sure Noir is looking into it. Please don't make any accusations of him not caring. In fact, unless you've tried EVERYTHING to counter 'cheese' (which I'm sure some people have) then think twice before opening your mouth to whine. Best;

Ty.

Putting faith in ELO to balance allegiance is like putting a wolverine in charge of tending sheep. It's just plain stupid and nothing good will come of it. The autobalance command will be no better then the old randomize button and only ignorant carebears will think it works otherwise.

I think Noir has done a wonderful job of balancing DN. There are a few new cheese flavors here and there, but how is that any different from any other game?

PS:
Spunky go back to your hole.


Love,
Nak

Well, this thread should never of started more than likely... it's turning into e-peen contest again.

GoD is fun, it feels differently than DN and we don't have to worry about broken tech and the like.

DN is fun, it feels differently than GoD and we can try things that GoD doesn't have.

Party. /cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="cool.gif" />

I don't know why you guys are making it into an advocacy thing. We are simply discussing the use of stats, what's useful, what's not. If he argues he has valid stats that show whether his core is balanced, it's appropriate to point out why the stats are mostly worthless.

Your talking about balancing by stats. I personally think it's a bad idea, I've yelled at noir a couple of times that @#(! is overpowered etc. He listens and blanaces his way. Thats his perogative. Doesn't mean I won't stop complaining. If and god willing, I ever start the core I've thought out, then I'll do the same thing. Balance by my version of the stats. Fine.

spunk just remember whose been playing here for the past 6 months. You sorta just show back up and think you can run the show. Dont work like that

guitarism wrote:QUOTE (guitarism @ Aug 18 2006, 10:13 AM) And again I state.

You don't like it? Go make your own and balance it your way. Stop criticizing what Noir has done and continues to do, instead put forth your own effort.

LoL, aren't you the one always complaining on the DN forums to get noir to change this or that? Why don't you just make your own core with a weakened Belter tac? /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

All tac costs have been put back to normal instead of the reduced price...