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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:28 am
by TheCorsair
Israel defended itself from multiple attempts of Arab aggression to wipe it off the map and WON

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel

That's just tough luck to those who lost the wars ain't it.

Adept can moan from his winter wonderland base in Finland all he likes.... since Palestinians are so oppressed why doesn't Finland give them land carved out of Finnish territory starting with adepts house.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:57 am
by Raveen
Because they don't want to live there?

Question: Are Israel's actions going to reduce rocket attacks from Gaza in the long term and provide safer times in future for it's citizens?

History strongly suggests that no, it won't (see operation Cast Lead) therefore Israel's actions should be reconsidered.

The same argument obviously applies to the actions of the combatants in Gaza (call them what you will, I'm aiming for as neutral a tone as possible). So instead of actively supporting either side wouldn't it be better to apply pressure to them both to restart negotiations towards a genuine 2 state solution, to persuade Gazans to stop attacking Israel and to stop Israel from it's various attacks on the Palestinians both military and social?

As westerners we can more easily apply pressure to Israel and let's face it Israel is doing more to harm anyone else than the Gazans are.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:07 am
by TheCorsair
Raveen wrote:QUOTE (Raveen @ Nov 27 2012, 06:57 PM) Because they don't want to live there?
They do...that's why so many are using people smugglers to get into Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/world/eu...order.html?_r=0

They would LOVE to go to Finland you know.. it's a Triple A credit country ya know

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:14 am
by TheCorsair
Raveen wrote:QUOTE (Raveen @ Nov 27 2012, 06:57 PM) The same argument obviously applies to the actions of the combatants in Gaza (call them what you will, I'm aiming for as neutral a tone as possible). So instead of actively supporting either side wouldn't it be better to apply pressure to them both to restart negotiations towards a genuine 2 state solution, to persuade Gazans to stop attacking Israel and to stop Israel from it's various attacks on the Palestinians both military and social?
Gazans? We have a new nationality now. What's is a Palestinian anyway?

As for who Israelis have to deal with, it is HAMAS who have clear stated aims. They lie when they say they don't have this as their charter and can't be changed for "internal reasons".

Specific articles
Article 1 describes the Movement's program as "Islam".[17]
Article 2 of Hamas' Charter defines Hamas as a "universal movement" and "one of the branches of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine".[12][17][18][19]
Article 3 the Movement consists of "Muslims who have given their allegiance to Allah".[17]
Article 5 Demonstrates it Salafist roots and connections to the Muslim brotherhood. [17]
Article 6 Hamas is uniquely Palestinian,[20] and "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine"[12][17]
Article 7 describes Hamas as "one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders" and links the movement to the followers of the religious and nationalist hero Izz ad-Din al-Qassam.[17][19]
Article 8 The Hamas document reiterates the Muslim Brotherhood's slogan of "Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur'an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah its most sublime belief."[12][17]
Article 9 adapts Muslim Brotherhood's vision to connect the Palestinian crisis with the Islamic solution and advocates "fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail".[17]
Article 11 Palestine is sacred(waqf) for all Muslims for all time, and it cannot be relinquished by anyone.[17]
Article 12 affirms that "Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed" .[17]
Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[17]
Article 14 The liberation of Palestine is the personal duty of every Palestinian.[17]
Article 15 "The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim".It states the history of crusades into Muslim lands and says the "Palestinian problem is a religious problem".[17]
Article 20 Calls for action "by the people as a single body" against "a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people".[17]
Article 22 Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power. [17][21]
Article 28 Conspiracy indictment against "Israel, Judaism and Jews".[17][21]
Article 32 Hamas condemns as co-plotters the “imperialistic powers” .[21] References The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[17][22]


Negotiation is only used as a tool because they are weak. As in many of the wars waged against israel to wipe them off the Earth they are not really going to negotiate - that's why they keep firing rockets supplied from you know where!

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:43 pm
by Bunnywabbit
Brezhnev, you're quoting from a Wikipedia article that basically says that the charter is outdated and no one adheres to it anymore.

Now those who say that Hamas is immoral for firing rockets out of densely populated areas, you should realize that the place isn't like the US where you have huge stretches of unoccupied land where you can do anything you want. The entire Gaza strip is almost as densely populated as Miami, Florida, with 9,700 people per square mile. Sure, you could go and find someplace where there's no houses, but a spot that has both decent cover and no civilians around is hard to find.

You could say that Hamas is bad for killing Israeli civilians, but then you'd have to say the same about the Israeli's, because they do it too, and moreso. You could say that the Palestinians are bad because they target civilians on purpose, but given the huge bodycount, the IDF has lousy aim if they didn't intend to kill all those people (then again, the Uzi was never known for it's precision ...), and the Israelis have no qualms at all about attacking civic infrastructure or condemning the area to poverty and malnutrition. Does, morally speaking, Israel's supposed lack of murderous intent outweigh it's much larger death-toll?

Is it worse to murder one innocent on purpose then to blow up seven while aiming for one killer? I don't think it is.

This is why I don't feel there's a moral equivalency between the Israeli's and Hamas's actions. Yes, they're both bad. No, they are not equally bad. Israel is being worse.

I wouldn't really care about it except Israel is supposed to be one of us. They're supposed to be civilized and mindful of the rule of law and human rights and so forth. Israel is supposed to be one of the good guys and it's not. Let's at least stop pretending that it is.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:30 pm
by Jeruwafi
QUOTE ...the IDF has lousy aim if they didn't intend to kill all those people...[/quote]

Just wanted to throw in that IDF targets millitants' homes even if it means killing their families. That's quite extreme. Imagine media uproar if US tried something like this...

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:46 pm
by TheCorsair
Bunnywabbit wrote:QUOTE (Bunnywabbit @ Nov 28 2012, 01:43 AM) Brezhnev, you're quoting from a Wikipedia article that basically says that the charter is outdated and no one adheres to it anymore.
Yet it is still their charter and they claim it cannot be changed for "internal reasons"

Do you honestly believe that?

It is the essence of how Hamas was set up in the first place and not far removed at all from aims of al-Qaeda

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:34 pm
by Raven_42
In a 2009 opinion article, Daniel L. Byman of the Brookings Institution wrote that drone strikes may have killed "10 or so civilians" for every "mid- and high-ranking (al Qaeda and Taliban) leader. The Bureau also revealed that since President Obama took office at least 50 civilians were killed in follow-up strikes when they had gone to help victims and more than 20 civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners, tactics that have been condemned by legal experts.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:13 pm
by Jeruwafi
Raven_42 wrote:QUOTE (Raven_42 @ Nov 27 2012, 09:34 PM) In a 2009 opinion article, Daniel L. Byman of the Brookings Institution wrote that drone strikes may have killed "10 or so civilians" for every "mid- and high-ranking (al Qaeda and Taliban) leader. The Bureau also revealed that since President Obama took office at least 50 civilians were killed in follow-up strikes when they had gone to help victims and more than 20 civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners, tactics that have been condemned by legal experts.
Ouch. I guess US is better at hiding it from the press :-)

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:57 pm
by germloucks
BREZHNEV wrote:QUOTE (BREZHNEV @ Nov 27 2012, 11:46 AM) Yet it is still their charter and they claim it cannot be changed for "internal reasons"

Do you honestly believe that?

It is the essence of how Hamas was set up in the first place and not far removed at all from aims of al-Qaeda
Comparing Hamas, which is a political party VOTED INTO POWER BY THE PEOPLE, and Al-Qaeda a NON-government organization funded by extremists with oil money wont give you any meaningful information.

If you would look at the history, the Jews have just as much of a history of terrorism in Palestine as the Arab-Palestinians did. The Jews had armed militia groups in Palestine since the 1890's. They carried out terror attacks against EVEN THE BRITISH, who likely looked pretty stupid after their previous Zionist support. (which governed palestine after WW1 until the early 1940s.)

After the Jews delcared their independence, they immediately kicked out HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Palestinians from the new Israel, and even to this day wont let them return. There are Palestinian refugees from Israel who still have their house keys, even though those houses are still not there. Those Jews hated the Arabs as much as the Arabs hated them.



So, in conclusion, both the Jews and the Palestinians have done stupid @#(!ty things to each other over the last century. Assigning levels of blame around helps nothing. Everyone is so concerned about whatever wrongs they have been caused them that they cant look to the future to see what things could be like and what they need do to get there.