Elementary school shooting

fuzzylunkin1 · Post by **fuzzylunkin1** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 am

Bunnywabbit wrote:QUOTE (Bunnywabbit @ Dec 18 2012, 04:55 PM) But maybe you're right. Scew it, it's your country. But don't come crying about it if your own kid get shot to pulp.

Getting rid of guns still leaves the crazy people.

The reason they shoot people is because they are crazy. Not because they own guns. Many people own guns for hunting and/or protection. Yes, people still hunt.

I don't see how this doesn't add up.

Spunkmeyer · Post by **Spunkmeyer** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:33 am

fuzzylunkin1 wrote:QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Dec 18 2012, 07:30 PM) I don't see how this doesn't add up.

More guns on the market = easier access = more potential for violence.

How does that not add up?

Mastametz · Post by **Mastametz** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:40 am

Gun prohibition = huge black market for weapons which creates a whole new wave of gangs/gang violence (specifically gun-related gang violence) = nobody has guns except gangsters and cops who suck.

fuzzylunkin1 · Post by **fuzzylunkin1** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:43 am

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Dec 18 2012, 10:33 PM) More guns on the market = easier access = more potential for violence.

How does that not add up?

I'm not saying gun control doesn't have the possibility of helping. I'm saying less crazy people would help more.

Post by **Raveen** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:51 am

I'm not sure I understand why it's an either/or question Fuzz. Taking guns away would stop crazy people shooting, helping crazy people would stop them wanting to shoot, doing both helps the fact that you won't remove all the guns or all the crazy people.

I've always thought of America as a great 'can do' country, it's one of your most charming qualities. "We do these things because they are hard" for example. So when you have people like Bacon saying it'd be too hard to ban guns in the USA I feel a little sad because that great attitude just died a little bit more. Of course you can ban guns, it's relatively easy. You don't do it all at once in a knee jerk reaction (and that's the problem with most of your existing gun legislation I guess), but you set an end goal and slowly work towards it. 50 years would be a nice round figure to have effectively banned guns by, and really quite achievable I would think.

Either that or just stop selling ammo and see how long the shooting lasts, either way really

Bunnywabbit · Post by **Bunnywabbit** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:56 am

Hellsyng wrote:QUOTE (Hellsyng @ Dec 19 2012, 01:16 AM) You must be $#@!ing joking me.

It's been an interesting thread for me too. It's not everyday you get to see people being challenged in their core beliefs by reality. Watching Night take leaps of logic in the form of 'PTSD is worse than death', you agreeing with that, and Bacon basically calling everyone who disagrees with his assessment of the situation a fairy, and Fuzzy saying that the way to approach this is make sure there's less crazy people....

I mean, you'd expect Masta to throw something idiotic into the mix, and he reliably delivers, but these people are not usually this ... how do you say this...
It's like they all suddenly turned into Alien51.

And now to clear up any misunderstandings: No, I don't actually believe you should execute violent crime victims, citing their PTSD to be worse than death, because it is silly to think that PTSD is worse than death. If it weren't, you wouldn't be so shocked at my suggestion to euthanize sufferers.

(edit: grammar for clarity)

edit: addition:
Also, this has been deteriorating for decades. What makes you think it won't get any worse than this?

Death3D · Post by **Death3D** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:03 am

The problem with the "We can do it" attitude is it should work both ways, but right now it is only working on the "shock and awe" values of things. eg. Why the $#@! do you need a 50 round-mag on a handgun? "Because we can". Why the $#@! do you need a "legal" Assault Rifle (eg. Bushmaster, restricted to Semi-auto or not)? "Because we can".

Edit: Are we truly this image obsessed, that we don't see the stupidity in actually being able to carry out whatever the image we adopt "promises" to carry out? "With this badboy, I can kill 50 mother$#@!ers in a minute." Do you really want to kill 50 badboys in a minute? Are you really this dense to think of them as "just badboys" with no consideration?

Edit2: $#@! it. No hope.

notjarvis · Post by **notjarvis** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:42 am

fuzzylunkin1 wrote:QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) Getting rid of guns still leaves the crazy people.

The reason they shoot people is because they are crazy. Not because they own guns. Many people own guns for hunting and/or protection. Yes, people still hunt.

I don't see how this doesn't add up.

It does.

But relatively easy access to weapons which do far more damage means mentally ill people can get the tools to cause more damage.

Now, it's not impossible to get a gun in the UK, but it is more difficult, so it stands to reason a mentally ill person who wants to go on a rampage is unlikely to have one easily to hand (Getting one takes some forethought and some difficulty, and how many seriously mentally ill individuals have the forward thinking and ability to do that without raising suspicion.)

Personally, as someone who has fired a number of guns in the past on ranges, in army training etc. (and enjoyed the experience) I have an enormous respect for their destructive power, and a little understanding.

But as a normalish British citizen, I feel distinctly uncomfortable even meeting police with a weapon in normal life.

I personally think restricting the sale of such weapons in some way is an important step in recognising that such weapons are dangerous, but I can understand with the US's history and culture seem that people are against such precautions.

It does seem curious to me that the US outlaws drugs (whose use only affects the individual) while allowing the sale of weapons which can seriously affect many people.

NightRychune · Post by **NightRychune** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:59 am

i never said ptsd is worse than death, i only said ptsd is really $#@!ing serious and just because someone didn't die in a violent event doesn't mean everything is sunshine and rainbows. it's certainly going to be terrible for the children who witnessed the death and chaos in newtown

there are certainly things at play beyond "guns" and "mental illness" - these things are a biproduct of american culture. we very often extol the virtues and glories of our military and how we're the best mother$#@!ers in the world when it comes to war, and freeing the @#(! out of people at gunpoint is pretty cool. what's also of note is the way males are socialized. they are largely taught in american society that expressing any emotion aside from rage is weakness, and expressing weakness is bad. this leaves people with difficulties empathizing with others and a lack of ways to obtain catharsis, and these things can manifest in extreme ways - the most extreme of which are sociopathic murdersprees.

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:06 am

Grim stuff from Virulence