Sup too powerful in CC07

[Exo]

QUOTE (Xeretov @ Nov 13 2009, 07:34 PM) Which would be a nerf to Sup, and Sup doesn't need to be nerfed nor is this a topic about doing so.
(sarcasm)

Xer, it's not about the idea of nerfing Sup that's irritating, it's that you're seemingly attempting to turn Figs into @#(! Ints.

A fig is really more of an interceptor by the standards of today. It's there to engage at range, spike, flyby if necessary, and joust. It's got neither the tremendous agility, nor the survivability, to remain in a prolonged dogfight. Nor are its weapons designed for very close in fighting.

An int is much more the dogfighter craft (ironically). It uses superior speed and agility to get up close and minimise its own damage whilst using its very short range weaponry to best effect; relying on that agility and heavier hull to keep it alive long enough to see it through.

If you kill off the fig's longer range jousting abilities, you remove much of its value and individuality. You make it into a @#(!ty int that can't boost fast enough out of trouble and doesn't have the armour to protect it.

Try looking at it a different way. Get rid of hvy boost - or move the hvy boost over to Exp so that they get a booster improvement with a minor toning down; and make it int only.

You could even consider looking over the guns instead of the missiles; or increase the weight of dumbs so that the figs find it harder to line up effectively. Hell, there's plenty to tweak without trying to make Sup a pants Exp for fighter craft...

Or sorry, that must be your intention; perhaps you should half the tracking on Hunter missiles so that they don't hit ints as much.
(sarcasm)

[Camaro]

Why dont we just perk the other tech trees instead. Perk expansions economy enhancing GAs, give them a third line of station shield/hull GAs. Give tac a stealth gunship (bios tac can have an uber stealth gunship).

[Mastametz]

Nerfs for balance are always better than perks for balance.

Perks for balance kill games.

nerf nerf NERF

[lexaal]

QUOTE (Mastametz @ Nov 14 2009, 12:12 PM) Nerfs for balance are always better than perks for balance.

Perks for balance kill games.

nerf nerf NERF

+1

[MrChaos]

Xeretov but it is a wee bit to early to claim an uptick in game play based on the changes imho.

However given that I JUST ranted about the-sit-in-a-pod-while-the-commander-gets-endgame-tech nature of anything vs Exp (caveat: unless your commander has a clue with regard to strat/faction/map), it appears to me I need to put my ass in the seat again about 10-15 times to see the recent changes in bigger games.

Endless nerfing you end up with a mushy tasteless porridge. The only distinction is the art work and the names. Always perking leaves you with lumpy mess where every bite is overpowering and nasty. Endlessly $#@!ing with the soup tends to spoil it... simple huh

[Xeretov]

QUOTE (Exo @ Nov 14 2009, 05:22 AM) Xer, it's not about the idea of nerfing Sup that's irritating, it's that you're seemingly attempting to turn Figs into @#(! Ints.

If you kill off the fig's longer range jousting abilities, you remove much of its value and individuality. You make it into a @#(!ty int that can't boost fast enough out of trouble and doesn't have the armour to protect it.

This just doesn't make any sense. You're complaining about the "long range jousting abilities" and how I'm "turning figs into @#(! ints". How does nerfing dumbfires (one missile) versus bombers (not a dogfighting ship) remove their long range jousting abilities? Are you telling me the only way a fighter can kill anything is by lobbing dumbfires at it? And where have I said that I'm going to nerf them rather than its an idea, or where I've said I'm going to nerf them by a huge amount? And before you hit reply and start bitching that its a nerf to seekers too, let me quote something I said earlier in this thread, about how the DMs would have to be looked at:

QUOTE (Xeretov @ Nov 13 2009, 05:38 PM) Yes, halving dumbfire damage would make it do the same damage as seeker. Except they're both in the same damage class, so it would effectively half seeker damage too. And DMs are at a premium right now so its not the greatest idea.

But I suppose you missed that in the process of jumping on the "XERETOV IS TAKING MISSILES AWAY FROM FIGS" bandwagon.

Since I seem to be in the habit of repeating myself a lot in this forum, let me go ahead and quote something else for you:

QUOTE (Xeretov @ Nov 13 2009, 07:34 PM) Because of the perks made to Sup over time (ss3 easier to get, reduced scale, hvy booster doesn't require SY on, more fuel, etc.) fighters are performing much closer to ints on defense than they're supposed to be. Even if the plan goes awry Figs are good enough now to just cut down the nans and kill the bomber anyhow.

Which is the issue. You've even acknowledged this somewhat. Drizzo suggested some alternative ideas (besides hvy booster or bust) and I expanded on them. Somehow you seem to have mistaken this for my nerfing fighters into the ground. Nevermind the fact that I said it was a touchy thing to balance, nevermind that I had reservations about the DM class, nevermind that I've even said its not a great idea. No, the fact that I've even considered touching missiles is too much. We're obviously not allowed to consider alternative ideas for fig nerfs or try to look at things differently.

Wait...

QUOTE Try looking at it a different way.[/quote]
Oh the irony.

The whole $#@!ing point of considering Drizzo's suggestions was to look at things a different way. But I guess you missed that concept too in the bandwagon process.

QUOTE You could even consider looking over the guns instead of the missiles; or increase the weight of dumbs so that the figs find it harder to line up effectively. Hell, there's plenty to tweak without trying to make Sup a pants Exp for fighter craft...[/quote]
Because even looking at missile damage would instantly reduce fighters to noncombatants. Nevermind if the missiles only do less damage against one kind of ship, it would completely remove their long range jousting ability.

This bandwagoning fills me with disgust. Try reading the rest of what I've posted in this thread before you come back here, complaining about how its the apocalypse for fighters because I'm discussing different options for missiles and spiking. I think from now on I'm just going to assume that Masta is right and there is nobody that can aim anymore. I think I'm also going to start making my posts in very small words so you can all read them easily. At least by the time I'm done with CC I'll be qualified to work at a daycare centre.


To Mistah C:

But changes to figs have been growing for a while now. They didn't really get touched in CC_07, so all this complaining is really based off of their performance in CC_06. Which came out several months back. I know I enjoy flying figs much more than ints now and that troubles me. I mentioned it in an earlier post, but I have stopped a 6 nan bombrun alone before. And if I'm not mistaken that was in a squadgame, probably back on CC_04. Figs have only gotten better since. The ability to go out and play hero like that, especially with a fighter, needs to be toned back. I should NOT be able to go out and solo a bombrun with 9 people on it, alone, with any small ship.

Nerfing dumbs was a suggestion I liked, but ultimately wasn't workable. I wish people would read the second part of that sentence again. Then go back a few pages and read where I admitted that a full day ago. Hvy booster is definitely aiming for a nerf right now, but that doesn't mean its the only solution. But discussing anything else is probably going to raise my blood pressure again.

[HSharp]

Xer has balls, I like balls. thinking about the recent sup perks like Xer stated about ss3 and hvy boost with SY off does seem to make figs a lot stronger.

I do agree with a lot of sentiments that heavy boost is very overpowered, being able to have the agility of an int and added with ss3 now even being able take a beating like an int so I was thinking of another solution, before sup had a fairly nice perk of halving their parts costs making it quite cheap to get high end tech so I propose either remove heavy boosters or acknowledge that figs are a lot more powerful but now have them have the tech cost requirement to back it up.

[Adept]

QUOTE (Xeretov @ Nov 15 2009, 02:31 AM) This just doesn't make any sense. You're complaining about the "long range jousting abilities" and how I'm "turning figs into @#(! ints". How does nerfing dumbfires (one missile) versus bombers (not a dogfighting ship) remove their long range jousting abilities?

For the sake of accuracy: I think Exo was referring to ints being med hull as well. You even talked about reducint the damage that ints take from random dumbfire hits... and that certainly wouldn't make it a change vs. only one type of non-dogfighting ship.

But enough of this pedantry. It was a radical train of thought, but I don't think it's very likely to happen. HSharp speaks wisdom about the cost of sup vs. exp, but even so I hope to see the demise of heavy boost (and cruise) in the near future.

[sambasti]

Kill Hvy booster, sup is already the most expensive tech path, they really don't need a nerf in that department.

[Xeretov]

QUOTE (Adept @ Nov 14 2009, 08:35 PM) For the sake of accuracy: I think Exo was referring to ints being med hull as well. You even talked about reducint the damage that ints take from random dumbfire hits... and that certainly wouldn't make it a change vs. only one type of non-dogfighting ship.

This is true, and I did point that out because I thought it would be an issue. One I liked because its a nerf to the same fighters that can (hvy) boost away from the int when it gives chase, but the situation is still as a side effect. The biggest problem with nerfing dumbfires though is freeing up a damage class without kludging something else. I've got a few ideas here but I'm not sure its worth spending the one DM it would free up on dumbfires against medium hull.

But for the record I still think spiking damage needs a bit of toning down. It might not matter as much if/when hvy booster is removed though, but I still stand by the fact that I should not be able to solo a 9 person bombrun on my own with a fighter. And that I did it before the more recent perks to fighters went through.

Edit: Spiddles put the poll up. Go vote.