Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:59 pm
Oh. I wrote that as a joke. But ok, cool.barricuda wrote:QUOTE (barricuda @ Jun 23 2010, 07:49 PM) Working on a story bout that
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:09 am
You'd need a huge gyroscope to make the ship turn at any acceptable rate, and that would be a mass increase that would kill the ship's ability to accelerate. Placing thrusters further from the mass center increases the momentum of the force generated by the thrusters, thus needing less force to make the ship turn. You can have an example of this by trying to close a door by pushing near the axis and comparing to pushing far from the axis. Also less force makes easier to compensate the spinning.LANS wrote:QUOTE (LANS @ Jun 23 2010, 07:02 PM) That's a what most people think at first, Before they remember their conservation of angular momentum. Its pretty easy to use a gyroscope of sufficient weight and spin to turn your ship in any direction without thrusting. Placing the thrust further from the center of mass just makes it harder to balance the thrust output and prevent uncontrollable spin. You should be rotating the ship with the gyros, not the thrusters. This both saves fuel, is more precise, and allows you to use one set of thrusters for most maneuvering, instead of the necessity of multi-direction thrusters if the thrusters are being used to turn the ship.
Now if those wings/fins/whatever ar radiators, its acceptable, but putting radiators on a fighting ship is stupid. Its just one more thing to break in combat. If we're going to consider the purposes ships in allegiance are used for, the short time ships are out between docking/reloading would lead to the use of heat sinks and ejectable heat sinks (say, a modular heat sink which parts of can be ejected when they reach just-before-melting-point). Using booster exhaust to dump heat is a great method.
The space shuttle currently uses thrusters to maneouver in space, and believe me, seeing how expensive is to put a kg of fuel in space and how means are americans with their money, if the NASA could use a fuel-less efficient way to move in space they'd do it.
Edit: no, solar sails and ionic engines aren't yet an efficient way to move. But i like to think of the main engine in alleg as an ionic engine.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:40 am
OMG, 2 months away and I come back and you all are talking about gyroscopes. 
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:10 am
*edit*
I understand gimbals vs thrusters and why spacecraft can use them etc and will leave it to others to discuss the merits of thrusters vs gimbals for a ship meant to dogfight in space.... another silly idea but Im digressing.
The heat build up in a fighter would be an issue indeed. Consumable heat sinks
but you don't jettison right below the melting point since you lose all that lovely absorbtion capabilities of the latent portion that turns the material into a vapor without a single degree incrrease in temperature. Further more even the vapor could be used for a few extra percentage points of efficiency cooling. You allow it to boil, vaporize, throttle it to near vacuum, and pass the vapor across the containment vessel... please don't anyone talk about how cold space is or Ill cry 
I understand gimbals vs thrusters and why spacecraft can use them etc and will leave it to others to discuss the merits of thrusters vs gimbals for a ship meant to dogfight in space.... another silly idea but Im digressing.
The heat build up in a fighter would be an issue indeed. Consumable heat sinks
but you don't jettison right below the melting point since you lose all that lovely absorbtion capabilities of the latent portion that turns the material into a vapor without a single degree incrrease in temperature. Further more even the vapor could be used for a few extra percentage points of efficiency cooling. You allow it to boil, vaporize, throttle it to near vacuum, and pass the vapor across the containment vessel... please don't anyone talk about how cold space is or Ill cry Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:33 am
I suddenly wish there was a faction based around space sailing. 
If only ship models could be animated, with furling and unfurling sails... Oh, and then we'd have to add in changeable space winds, of course! And space storms, and, and, space sharks, which you can hunt for extra He3. It all makes perfect sense -- all that luminiferous aether is basically an ocean anyway, isn't it? 
If only ship models could be animated, with furling and unfurling sails... Oh, and then we'd have to add in changeable space winds, of course! And space storms, and, and, space sharks, which you can hunt for extra He3. It all makes perfect sense -- all that luminiferous aether is basically an ocean anyway, isn't it? Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:41 am
Solar sails, Girlyboy. No need for any wind.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:32 pm
Yes, but that's much less exciting game-wise, and relies on a combination of light pressure (which always goes in one direction) and orbital mechanics to get where it's going. Ever-changing currents of space wind that you have to carefully catch with your space ship's space sails would be much more fun.
(Plus, a giant, shiny sheet of incredibly fragile material several kilometres in diameter? Now there's a hitbox I wouldn't want to fly with... )
Ever-changing currents of space wind that you have to carefully catch with your space ship's space sails would be much more fun. (Plus, a giant, shiny sheet of incredibly fragile material several kilometres in diameter? Now there's a hitbox I wouldn't want to fly with...
)Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:51 pm
If I go into full physics geek mode, I'll blow your post right out of the water. For now I'll just say you're dead wrong about radiators and your mother dresses you funny. Vacuum is the perfect insulator. All ship systems generate heat, and what ever it is we use for engines, they are definitely generating heat. Getting rid of this is a major head-ache, and radiators are not something you can leave out because they'd be fragile.LANS wrote:QUOTE (LANS @ Jun 23 2010, 08:02 PM) That's a what most people think at first, Before they remember their conservation of angular momentum. Its pretty easy to use a gyroscope of sufficient weight and spin to turn your ship in any direction without thrusting. Placing the thrust further from the center of mass just makes it harder to balance the thrust output and prevent uncontrollable spin. You should be rotating the ship with the gyros, not the thrusters. This both saves fuel, is more precise, and allows you to use one set of thrusters for most maneuvering, instead of the necessity of multi-direction thrusters if the thrusters are being used to turn the ship.
Now if those wings/fins/whatever ar radiators, its acceptable, but putting radiators on a fighting ship is stupid. Its just one more thing to break in combat. If we're going to consider the purposes ships in allegiance are used for, the short time ships are out between docking/reloading would lead to the use of heat sinks and ejectable heat sinks (say, a modular heat sink which parts of can be ejected when they reach just-before-melting-point). Using booster exhaust to dump heat is a great method.
Look at the original ships btw. Look at the bios fighter, Gigacorp scout... a lot of fins. The original dev team was shooting at a fairly hard-Sci-Fi game.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:53 pm
Not even close. There is nothing in the game that works like using wings to bank against a medium. Not even like planes do on air, and definitely not like any fluid.LANS wrote:QUOTE (LANS @ Jun 24 2010, 01:36 AM) Alleg uses a thick-ideal-fluid newtonian physics model (its not a perfect model, but its good enough).
Thank you for playing, but no cigar.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:39 am
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Sep 6 2010, 12:51 PM) If I go into full physics geek mode, I'll blow your post right out of the water. For now I'll just say you're dead wrong about radiators and your mother dresses you funny. Vacuum is the perfect insulator. All ship systems generate heat, and what ever it is we use for engines, they are definitely generating heat. Getting rid of this is a major head-ache, and radiators are not something you can leave out because they'd be fragile.
Look at the original ships btw. Look at the bios fighter, Gigacorp scout... a lot of fins. The original dev team was shooting at a fairly hard-Sci-Fi game.
Meh, was worth a shot. I'll shut up and do my math next time.Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Sep 6 2010, 12:53 PM) Not even close. There is nothing in the game that works like using wings to bank against a medium. Not even like planes do on air, and definitely not like any fluid.
Thank you for playing, but no cigar.