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girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jan 30 2012, 07:28 PM) But... shouldn't squad games at least in theory be about discouraging and combating this sort of thing -- people not putting in effort, lack of skill, etc. -- rather than accepting them as inevitable and trying to change the rules/accepted practices to accommodate them?

So how do we encorage this? By letting them do it that way and forcing the other team to quit / afk get fed up of playing?

Or "stealing" the enemy commanders win because they took so long?

To me the resign would sting the enemy commander more than letting them bore the enemy to submission....

edit: Just to be clear. I think that the current method rewards the play you're so against above. Allowing the resign would make commanders who want to be fun and effective (to actually be able to finish the game) play in such a way who would stop the enemy from wanting to resign.

In the RT vs SF/BS match, the resign would've come out around the time they were entering our home with lux's vs our lt.ints if we wanted to resign at all, I don't think that would've been a bad thing at all. The game was well and truely over, there was absolutely nothing we could've done but the game was very fun. Sitting around (or getting whored upon by lux figs) isn't the best way to end a game is it? Surely ending the game with the buzz of how close the match _felt_ would've been better than being reminded you're their bitch for 10 minutes?

(OK in this case RT barely messed around, it was only a very very short time before the bomber was sighted to come end it once it felt it was near useless but we didn't want to give up and fought to the end because of that. The game had a bit of too-and-fro and thus didn't warrent a resign however if it was on a normal night we could've well gotten two games in if we resigned when it was hopeless.

As people have pointed out, the GAMEPLAY is better than the victory/loss

This whole discussion is a rather moot point for @MEC, I'm afraid.

We intend not to lose.

Dorjan wrote:QUOTE (Dorjan @ Jan 30 2012, 02:30 PM) So how do we encorage this? By letting them do it that way and forcing the other team to quit / afk get fed up of playing?

But... shouldn't teams in squad games just... not do that?

Dorjan wrote:QUOTE (Dorjan @ Jan 30 2012, 02:30 PM) Or "stealing" the enemy commanders win because they took so long?

Wait... I'm not sure what you mean here. "Stealing" the enemy win? You mean like... making a comeback and taking advantage of the other team's inability to end the game in order to turn the tables on them? Because... isn't that a good thing? And exactly what some of the vets here are talking about -- the fact that if you don't allow resigns, it encourages the losing team to try interesting and desperate strategies to win that sometimes pay off and often make the game more exciting?

Dorjan wrote:QUOTE (Dorjan @ Jan 30 2012, 02:30 PM) To me the resign would sting the enemy commander more than letting them bore the enemy to submission....

<Shrug> I don't know. I think resigns sting everyone. In pugs, at least, I hate having my team resign; as a comm I only do this when I'm incredibly frustrated as it is, and frankly I usually wish I had an excuse not to resign -- like some sort of sportsmanship rule. But in pugs the opposite seems to be true, and resigns seem to be more or less expected. When resigning is standard practice you start dreading them. The instant things start going badly for your team you start thinking -- "hmm, how long will it be before someone just posts a resign? Sure would be awesome if we could try to turn the tables on the enemy here but -- ah well, here it is, guess team doens't want to play anymore anyway so might as well hit "Y"." Having the other team resign also seems unsatisfying. "Oh man, this final bomb/HTT/whatever run is so awesome, this game will really end with an exciting final battle and -- oh. Here's the score screen. Uhh... yay us? I... guess?" Seeing the game to the end always seems so much more satisfying, from either side. It's just that in pugs, resigning is standard practice. I like the idea of there being another level of play where they aren't used at all.

girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jan 30 2012, 07:37 PM) But... shouldn't teams in squad games just... not do that?

But people do? Are you going to force them not too?

girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jan 30 2012, 07:37 PM) Wait... I'm not sure what you mean here. "Stealing" the enemy win? You mean like... making a comeback and taking advantage of the other team's inability to end the game in order to turn the tables on them? Because... isn't that a good thing? And exactly what some of the vets here are talking about -- the fact that if you don't allow resigns, it encourages the losing team to try interesting and desperate strategies to win that sometimes pay off and often make the game more exciting?

You've clearly not played allegiance then. I'm not talking about times when you have a chance, but any experienced commander knows when they're beat. When there is even a sliver of hope you wouldn't give in a resign but sometimes it goes past that and all you can do is defend and it becomes boring for most players.

girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jan 30 2012, 07:37 PM) <Shrug> I don't know. I think resigns sting everyone. In pugs, at least, I hate having my team resign; as a comm I only do this when I'm incredibly frustrated as it is, and frankly I usually wish I had an excuse not to resign -- like some sort of sportsmanship rule. Seeing the game to the end always seems so much more satisfying, from either side. It's just that in pugs, resigning is standard practice. I like the idea of there being another level of play where they aren't used at all.

Well in squad games I would hope the situation would rarely come about where a resign is needed but I think you're living in a fantasy world where people have infinite time. As my OP points out, this is the only game which seems to frown upon a resign. I've been raged at many many many times in other games because I fight until the end and called a troll and unsportsmanlike to do it since I'm just "wasting time" because I have "no chance".

A resign will only sting if it is done when there is still a hope, and if your squad does that, then you're in the wrong squad, and if their squad does it, don't worry their squad won't last very long (ala DSM).

I'll use this 2nd post to cover your edit:

That would be a bad resign. If it would be an epic fight then the enemy team resigned too early and the way to deal with teams who do that in squad tier play is not play them. Good pilots would leave a team like that and eventually they'd disband (DSM for example).

<Shrug> I started by saying I'm not qualified to comment and I posted too much, given that. Perhaps I idealized the world of squad play a little too much.

girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jan 30 2012, 07:44 PM) <Shrug> I started by saying I'm not qualified to comment and I posted too much, given that. Perhaps I idealized the world of squad play a little too much.

It's not that. I agree with you, I really do!

What you seem to not see, or care to think about, is there are times where resigning would be valid and shouldn't be frowned upon. I remember a game as XT, where it was an epic 2 hour game with sysx. XT resigned it just after we lost the game. People have real lives and the game was amazing, truly great! But if we had waited for SysX to finish it, it would've tainted the whole game because of the end.

That game had only a few quips about us resigning, but largely everyone understood it was a decent resign.

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Jan 30 2012, 03:30 PM) This whole discussion is a rather moot point for @MEC, I'm afraid.

We intend not to lose.

That's why we lost last SG.

Never surrender. It's not manly to surrender. It's not even manly to draw. Fight to the bitter end!

be a man and take it in the back as you diserve imo

I'd say that resigning is more of a convention than a rule and as such it's generally up to squads whether they want to do it or not.

Resigning is not something you can make a blanket rule about, as it's extremely subjective depending on what's actually happening in the game. I'm personally against allowing squads simply to resign when they think they are losing a game - as it will effectively make SGs PUGs in the sense that games will never end without a resign.

There are times when resigning might be appropriate, say if a squad is failing to finish a game for whatever reason and it has been dragging on for ages but I'd rather not see everyone take up resigning SGs.

Essentially nothing needs to be changed because there is nothing to change. Do what you will in SGs but if you get flak for it then take the hits