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[BackTrak]

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 20 2011, 06:30 PM) The OP was talking about having Allegiance server on Linux not Allegiance client. The ASGS/CSS issue came into the discussion when someone misunderstood and subtly shifted the topic to running the client under Linux...(I think it's MrC once again, wtg!. Or was it on purpose ?).

So we're probably all off-topic already...

but since we're here:

I still don't get the need for machine fingerprint in ACSS (except for replicating a bad feature of ASGS...).

Not a single online major game does this. Even the very popular ones like WoW that are under heavy attack by hackers and cheaters for real money reasons.

Actually the only other thing I know of that uses machine fingerprint is the Windows Product Activation system...
food for thoughts.

I think the big difference is that all those other systems can charge for service where Allegiance does not. Therefore Allegiance cannot simply ban a serial number to kick off a player where other products can just kill the serial and force the user to buy another. Also taking credit cards is a good way to tie accounts back to billing addresses, etc. Well, I suppose this was tried with Allegiance back in the PayPal $1 days without success. That's my understanding of the design goals, people who were actually involved feel free to jump in.

[KGJV]

QUOTE (BackTrak @ Sep 21 2011, 04:42 PM) I think the big difference is that all those other systems can charge for service where Allegiance does not. Therefore Allegiance cannot simply ban a serial number to kick off a player where other products can just kill the serial and force the user to buy another. Also taking credit cards is a good way to tie accounts back to billing addresses, etc. Well, I suppose this was tried with Allegiance back in the PayPal $1 days without success. That's my understanding of the design goals, people who were actually involved feel free to jump in.

We had no clear feedback from The PayPal $1 days, as we have no clear feedback on ASGS fingerprint efficiency.
Why ? Because we have no access to any datamining or statistics from the ASGS database. The reason is always the same but I don't want to derail this thread with it...

IIRC, ACSS basic design was more like 'let's redo what ASGS does' than a new and carefully planned (and discussed!) design. I don't recall any discussion or explanation concerning the use of machine fingerprints in ACSS and what alternatives could be used.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion and it's the same thing that is happening in core development or art development. People who decide and do these things have a 'walled' reasoning and never take into account that code changes could help them. Why ? I think it's a bad habit they got from either the period during which the game source code was not available or because of the dysfunctional Dev ZL/Team...or both (or "I won't talk about this again here"). Well for short, they take for granted that code changes won't happen so they plan and do their stuff without considering them, even if they could save them tons of hours...

So my point is:
If people can cheat or crash the game, than it's better to fix these holes directly in the game code rather than providing a complex security gizmo to ban them.
The sole purpose of ASGS/ACSS should be to provide secure authentication and authorization (who is who and who can do what).nothing more. Once we have that than we can fix the holes directly in the game. it's 100x times better, faster and more secure and the game code will get ironed in the process.

As for banning accounts and enforcing RoC, do like everyone does: Just stick to dealing with 'accounts' (with paypal or not, better with both). The idea is to add 'value' to accounts so that people would care for them and behave appropriately or risk losing their account (value = stats, ranks, medals, achievements, squad membership, etc)
Also for this to work, identity and 'fame' are key elements, so things like hiders should be gone. SSO is a good step in that direction too (IIRC, ACSS will have SSO).

oh well i'm probably losing my time explaining this yet another time. I've been preaching this for almost 5 years now.

[madpeople]

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 21 2011, 04:57 PM) We had no clear feedback from The PayPal $1 days, as we have no clear feedback on ASGS fingerprint efficiency.

Here's a data point for you. I found allegiance during the paypal period, I didn't think a `free' game was worth $1 to find out if it was any good or even still going and I was probably too young to have a paypal, but I played the training missions a bit and got quite good at the dog fighting one. Later I came back to find out that I no-longer needed a paypal wasn't needed any more and played.

So, from the data [point] we have 100% of the players who found allegiance during the paypal period didn't pay but did play during the ASGS period

I think instead of machine fingerprinting we should be implementing retinal scanning using webcams and magnifying glasses (and laser pointers?)...

[HSharp]

It's not just about banning cheaters for the fingerprinting but to stop unbalanced games with fake newbies, most other games don't have balanced rank battles and the few games which do try and have balanced games either have an incentive for the higher ranks (better weapons and other crap in CoD) or some form of DRM which is practically fingerprinting anyway.

[KGJV]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Sep 21 2011, 07:06 PM) It's not just about banning cheaters for the fingerprinting but to stop unbalanced games with fake newbies, most other games don't have balanced rank battles and the few games which do try and have balanced games either have an incentive for the higher ranks (better weapons and other crap in CoD) or some form of DRM which is practically fingerprinting anyway.

see! you have the exact same reasoning I mentioned: you completely ignore the fact that we can do some code changes to solve these issues.

Instead you would justify to design a complex banning system just because of few individuals badly behave and break game balance.

your reasoning is 'the code can't change', so we have to adapt around it.

They are ways with code changes to prevent unbalanced games with fake newbies, ,just think outside the box a bit. But first, think how many people this really concern and why they behave like this and can't we find simpler solutions to deal with them ?
This don't bother anyone that we have to do all these complex stuff just because of a few morons ?

We can add 'incentive for the higher ranks' or whatever, forcing new account to have '1 hour' of mandatory 'scout only' games for instance. bombers and other sensitive ships could be rank restricted. anything is imaginable. just think.

but no, people don't even try to think, they're stuck on 'the code can't change' so let's build complex gizmo around it and add complex rules and then tons of people to manage all of this.

[HSharp]

I was merely stating that the fingerprinting is not just some method to ban cheaters, I didn't say let's not have incentives, just saying why with the current game of Allegiance (game code) why fingerprinting is currently used (security code).

You are the one being passive-aggressive and sticking words into people's mouths.

Giving incentive for ranks is a tried and tested solution so fine let's have some ideas on that front.

A good incentive for increasing ranks would have been the skill locked games, as in games with no nov, or min rank vet or w/e but we currently don't have the active playerbase for that but gaining ranks to play more competitive games would certainly be a huge incentive however even with a better playerbase it would require a better tutorial so newbies weren't left completely abandoned.

People have talked about Achievements, which although not really an incentive for rank is certainly an incentive (big for some, minuscule incentive for others) to stay with one account.

Locking people into only being able to use certain ships might work but I do not think it sends a good image to unlock content based on how long you have been playing, I actually despise that feature in many games but that's just my personal preference.

So what other solutions are there?

[MrChaos]

Back

Thanks for the kind redirect of my clue and as always

Count

Simply misread what he was off to do. A tad snarky oh fanged one. Has the bloom gone off the rose in our romance?

[KGJV]

The 'you' I use does not always explicitly means you
English isn't my birth language and it takes me time and effort to write subtly. When I don't do that and rush to post, I usually sound snarky but I'm really not. Far from it. It's just the way my fast translations sound. I blame that broken English language here !

QUOTE (HSharp @ Sep 22 2011, 12:49 AM) So what other solutions are there?

Probably a lot because no one really ever took time to think about these.
But the problem will be to have these changes agreed and then implemented and my usual blablabla again about current management.

So my solution for now is turning Allegiance in a full single player game and build new stuff from that. If you connect all the dots you'll get why this is, for now, the best way to go.

[MrChaos]

~yp

Your English is definitiely better then my French

The random gender assignment to words made my high school French teacher weep in frustration with my writing and grammar. Just imagine the endless possibilities of that wrinkle in Chaotic communication


Back to poor Hotnoob ( soory for the derail bud, it seems to be in my blood )

Hots wants to help. He is seems stoked to do it in fact. Young. Mallable. I wonder which Grand Wizard of Coding will make him their apprentice.


Frankly Hots given the current hiring climate I'd hold out for a second crust of bread on alternating Sundays

[Dorjan]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Sep 21 2011, 10:49 PM) A good incentive for increasing ranks would have been the skill locked games, as in games with no nov, or min rank vet or w/e but we currently don't have the active playerbase for that but gaining ranks to play more competitive games would certainly be a huge incentive

Not really. The ones who want to drop back to 0 to whore newbies love.. whoring newbies.

I'm starting to see the sense in removing hiders actually. I can't think of another game which allows it (without having all your stats removed in the process) [like a different character in an mmo] so that's just a "sub-account"

Unlocking equipment per level is also nice although our current system (of being able to delevel) wouldn't be so nice... (TP2's only allowed by lvl12's and above etc)

Sorry for the new derail xD