Rix Heavy Scout Discussion

[Clay_Pigeon]

Dispersion may be a good idea. Perhaps a slight nerf on util dmg as well. The most effective use of hvy scout I've seen is to send your whole team to kill miners (and keep enemy miners down) while you mine freely to real tech.

[Xeretov]

Quick note clay: Reducing util damage of mini-AC would also reduce the util damage on full AC, skycap and longtoms as well. Which might also not be a bad thing.

Also, I suggested the dispersion change because the problem isn't heavy scouts killing things at 500m. At 500m they can get stomped on by even regular ints. The problem is hvy scouts backthrusting or running away with their turret doing tons of damage at max (1000m) range. Increase the dispersion and they have to either get closer to do the same damage or take a lot longer. Time enough for that int to have the chance to get close and do damage, but also without completely nerfing the hvy scout. Edit: Also, the Rix hvy scout has a low ammo capacity so they'd have to be careful about just peppering their target at max range because its entirely possible for them to run out of ammo and not kill said target. And then probably get podded.

It might also need a slight reduction in mini-AC's damage output as well, but I'd want to try just the dispersion change first and see how they perform with that.

[TurkeyXIII]

The way I see it, rix hvy scouts have a handful of problems, each on its own not huge but they add up:
-Effective range on the front mini-AC. Terran tried to tell me once that the dispersion was the same as full-AC, but then I checked ICE... It has roughly the second-best effective range behind skycap (excluding shipyard supertech). Any pilot worth his salt can sit behind a constant proxfield and rain fire on his target easily.
-Small hitbox. This is one reason AoE skycaps a so devastating against them, they don't have to actually hit the damned thing. Some other hvy scouts also have small hitboxes, but don't carry such powerful dogfighting weapons.
-Signature/anti-util. This is also true for most hvy scouts. It has the same sig as a stealth, and can kill a miner almost as quickly. On its own not a huge issue.
-Range GA bug. PW range GAs, including faction modifiers, fail to relay the correct particle speed to leads and reticules. This leads to an issue where, as rix exp/str, only the people who are aware of the bug and know how to counter it can actually hit anything. This is why commanders (or more specifically, teams) who try to mimic terran get pwned, while a few people with this particular experience can whore on hvy ints.
-It has the same speed, range and scanners as other hvy scouts. Not a huge issue, but keep it in mind when comparing to other techpaths.

Frankly all of the suggestions are good, even the ones that contradict the other ones. I might even go so far as increasing dispersion to equal that of a full-AC.

Edit: Because I was ninja'd by xeretov, the max range on a rix hvy scout starts at 1200m and goes up from there.

[Xeretov]

QUOTE (TurkeyXIII @ Jul 2 2010, 01:04 PM) the max range on a rix hvy scout starts at 1200m and goes up from there.

A dispersion change would affect all hvy scouts, not just Rix. Hence the 1000m comments.

Also as far as I know dispersion doesn't change with range GAs, meaning that the cone just continues getting bigger past 1000m. So an increase to dispersion would hurt even more at 1200m than it would at 1000.

[fwiffo]

from my experience, gat1+qf df1 does more damage than just mini ac1 on a miner. granted, you have to hit all your dfs and firing mini ac w/o missing is lots easier but i think if u nerf util damage then it might just make rix hvy scouts kinda sucky for miner o, at least compared to the other variants.

[WhiskeyGhost]

gat1 and df1 also have range and positional limitations, while the mini-AC does not (relatively speaking, speaking of range and how dumbfires won't hit targets outside of certain angles). I personally think the issue is that the Rix hvy scout is too powerful on a combat stance when it is used properly, whereas it isn't being used as it's role is intended, as a support ship.

That being said, I wouldn't appose mini-AC being nerfed by adjusting the spread, since it would hurt the Rix Hvy Scout the most, and be only a lesser penalty to other ships that use it.

[TheCorsair]

I like the uniqueness of Rixian Heavy Scouts. I like how it costs a @#(!ton of $$$$ to even get them and that they are not even a game ending tech. If you allow the opposing team to get them you have not killed enough miners or have it on very high money settings and your own team has not spent on game ending tech. I think those complaining about Rixian Heavy Scouts don't know how to fight or learn to evade one either.

It seems to be those who want change for the sake of change or those who just don't know how to handle one are the ones that complain about them and seem to be the same people always talking about it. There are many ways to combat one, you just need an even or competent commander. I wonder if we're getting closer and closer to "fair core".

edit: maybe just remove their turrets to encourage more teamwork on miner o

[spideycw]

QUOTE (TurkeyXIII @ Jul 2 2010, 01:04 PM) -Range GA bug. PW range GAs, including faction modifiers, fail to relay the correct particle speed to leads and reticules. This leads to an issue where, as rix exp/str, only the people who are aware of the bug and know how to counter it can actually hit anything. This is why commanders (or more specifically, teams) who try to mimic terran get pwned, while a few people with this particular experience can whore on hvy ints.

You made interesting points turkey but I am a bit confused here.

There is a bug where no one can aim accurately using leads and reticules once they have purchased the range ga. However Terran and anyone who is on his team magically get around this bug and manage to whore on heavy ints, but all other commanders (or more specifically teams) do not have this magic bug defeating ability?

[_SRM_Nuke]

QUOTE (TheCorsair @ Jul 2 2010, 02:03 PM) ...those who just don't know how to handle one are the ones that complain about them and seem to be the same people always talking about it. There are many ways to combat one, you just need an even or competent commander. I wonder if we're getting closer and closer to "fair core".

+1. There are half a dozen easy ways to defeat hvy scouts that any halfway decent commander knows. Just look at the forums for all of the suggestions. Giga gunships have even defeated them! If you spend 40k on adv tech you can defeat them. A boosting hvy int can easily close in range of a hvy scout before being killed unless you are a noob and go in a straight line where the prox will be. If you buy gunships you can defeat them. If you kill their miners early you can defeat them. If you build spec mines you can defeat them. If you turn sy on you can defeat them (hvy class > hvy scouts, always). Hell, for the cost of hvy scouts you can sy rush and mow them down. There is a reason Terran refuses to launch when sy is on with high money. And on and on. If you don't believe me I will command against Terran or Omni's hvy scouts any day and still win.

The problem is not that hvy scouts are uber, the problem is newbie commanders.

[spideycw]

QUOTE (TheCorsair @ Jul 2 2010, 02:03 PM) edit: maybe just remove their turrets to encourage more teamwork on miner o

I'm not sure anyone turrets rix heavy scouts anyway? The ammo constraint is too much of a drawback I would think