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xeretov wrote:Keep XRM tied to SY on, and remove FBs (and related FB tech) from the SY on requirement.

That won't fix the problem we're talking about. We're talking about how XRM is ineffective.

I like perking the damage, nerfing the range, and keeping the money cost. XRM should be, imo, the 'more powerful' figbee, but also considerably more expensive. I'd also like to see it take longer to tech to XRM. Currently there is no tech to XRM... maybe make it require SRM AB2 or 3 and/or heavy bbrs before you can research it? That'd delay it by at least ten minutes for bios (whom, iirc, were considered the principle recipient of XRM cheese).

Why should sup have two nearly indistinguishable endgames?

I agree that XRM has been nerfed beyond all utility. Maybe we should just take the final step and remove it completely.

It's not like XRM + heavy bombers is much different costwise than cruise boost FBs. I could possibly entertain the idea of making XRM uber again but making them depend on FBs (so you have a moderately succesful endgame tech followed by an insanely successful lategame tech).

What can you do with an XRM that you can't do with a figbee?

Thats true Cashto, and I rarely see XRM used nowadays. I suppose someone better at examples could come up with a situation where a (useful) XRM drop would be better than a FB run, I'm not going to try.

However the community voted to keep XRM with changes rather than remove it last time a poll went up. I'm not sure if that opinion has changed since.

XRM would normally be better vs exp. Figbees only go about 100 mps, while most bombers do about 60. Excluding acceleration, xrm heavies would have a lot earlier time frame in which they could start attacking the base, and theoretically XRM would be a more powerful version of figbees.

Of course for this to be balanced, it would have to take longer and cost more to get and use XRM.

The thing is, FBs don't need TP2 to be effective. If you happen to have a tele next to a techbase or close enemy small bases like ops or teles, FBs can be used to deal some damage.

Just like an uneyed bomb run, an uneyed FB run to a moderately close base (3K or less) from an aleph would work just as well (we already use aleph drops). Two or three FBs can take out an op or a tele if things get that far (after they already know you have FBs).

XRM on the other hand requires Hvy Bombers (Starbase), so you might as well get TP2 while you're at it.

I wouldn't personally use XRM.

As for solutions, I'm pliable towards removing the cost of the missle. Ten Hvy Bommaz are gonna set you back 5K not including the cost of the tech itself, plus you will need XRM2 to have a decent effect. I don't think the economics of it are an issue, it is a considerable cost. On the other hand, if you do manage to get ten Hvy Bombers sitting at 3K lobbing XRMs, with the old damage the base died pretty quickly. Decreasing the damage gives the defenders more time to kill the run, and promotes the usage of nans to increase the run's chance of success. More teamwork is a good thing.

Leaving the cost and increasing the damage, on the other hand, only requires you to have money to pwn. You can sit back and lob those missiles and they'll do the damage. No need for nans really. It also becomes more of a waiting game, you waste time and delay so you can scrounge together the funds. Boring!

So removing the cost would lead to more decisiveness. You don't have to wait AS LONG for the money, and it will take a long time to kill a base so nanning may be required.

Can belter figbbrs carry a nan?

Because this covers the same topic, im reposting from the tf lead indicator thread

Broodwich wrote:QUOTE (Broodwich @ May 4 2009, 03:45 PM) Also you have never seen a fb run get utterly annihilated by tf sup or exp where every other faction the base would end up dead. Considering you removed the brute force ending for sup with xrm, you made them rely on smaller, faster, far weaker craft to end the game. Because every noob/voob in the game gets perfect accuracy with their guns fbs evaporate because they are slow as $#@! and weak. So they WERENT necessarily as big a problem until you nerfed xrm to $#@! without the consent of the community

Personally i like the fb concept. As exp it gives you tons of targets and requires skill to shoot a horde of them down before they kill your techbase, which i find very exciting. Normally i get lots, others get none, because most people cant aim. I'm not trying to brag this is just a fact. This is a problem with tf because as I quoted above everyone can aim perfectly. Sup is about its crappy starting and midgame tech, but the most powerful endgame (besides sy i guess). Its expensive and you get whored on but if you keep your econ going you can win. With XRM effectively removed, you take out the brute force nature of its endgame, which doesnt allow any alternatives to the fragile fbs.

Normally XRM is expensive for any sup team. Once you get tp2 you need to get
Hvy Bombers 10k
Xrm1 5k
Maybe Xrm2, which is 5k more. It helps but isnt a huge difference (150 vs 120 dmg) as long as you get plenty of bombers which isnt too hard in the vast majority of game sizes.

So you are looking at 15-20k plus the cost of a run. Lets say around 6-8k for a good size run where the 10k base is guaranteed to die (with 100$ per rack)

If you decide on fbs the cost is (assuming you already have galvs, because unless you are against ic you will probably buy them anyway)
Figbees 5k
Cruise boost 2.5k
AB2 if you want (ab3 doesnt really benefit fbs that much) 2.5k

AB2 is as much of a boost over ab1 as xrm2 is to xrm1 (25%). But the damage difference is much larger per missle. Sometimes it makes the difference, sometimes not. Whatever. Anyway you are looking at 10k for a pretty powerful endgame + the cost of the run. Fbs cost less than half as much as xrm bombers, so lets say 3-4k.

Now the cost of something that has a slim chance of being stopped but can be with sufficient skill (unless you are tf) is about 13k or so less than something that is completely unstoppable. If I'm commanding i would most likely skip the cheaper stuff and go straight for the unstoppable because im sick of herding cats. (I'm assuming the team was too dumb to camp alephs or spread around your base, because in pugs that almost never happens, perhaps they were busy elsewhere trying to cap your sup instead of just turtling. In any case lets assume the drop is fine and everyone rips in) Most others will do the same.


The biggest problem with this has been bios for as long as i've been playing. You start with starbase so you can partial gs for d, tp1, bombers, adv scouts while paying for your techbase. By the time you finish your gar tech you had better have a techbase or had extreme trouble mining because otherwise you are a total moron and should end yourself. Anyway you chose sup so its tp2, hvy bombers, hvy scouts, XRM 1 and the other stuff. All of this is very cheap. By 20 minutes in you have tech up to kill any base with a normal size team. by 23 or so minutes in you have a tp2 scout set up, most your team in hvy bombers, and are ready to end the game. This violates bios's concept of waiting forever to get amazing endgame tech. But because of the way the sup tech tree is, this comes extremely easily to bios. Of course there are counters to this if you push hard and fast on them but there is no denying this was cheese in pug because most people are dumb as hell yadda yadda.


So what do we do about it:
-To counter the bios xrm rush, you can either:
Make XRM 1 suck balls, but XRM2 will still be decent
or
Make XRM research dependant on something else in the sup tree, say enh or adv figs for example

- To make XRM more of a last resort instead of a slightly more expensive yet HUGE gain in effectiveness vs fbs you can either:
Make base XRM research cost more, possibly 7.5k or 10k for each level
or
Make XRM only researchable in SY (this could also be used to counter the bios xrm rush)



Tldr version: go back and read it you lazy @#(!s


There's my one post that i put time into making unnecessarily long because everyone should already know this who's opinion is actually being considered. I fully expect most people to skim over it or ignore it. Yet there you have it. gee gee

Weylin wrote:QUOTE (Weylin @ May 7 2009, 12:36 AM) Can belter figbbrs carry a nan?

No.

Here's my idea: link XRM to AB3 and Heavy BBrs, perk XRM 1 damage to 90 and XRM 2 damage to 120 (the old XRM 1).

Reasoning:

XRM 1 used to be something of a win button. TP2 (or 1 if you were really poor) XRM 1 was really, really good at what it did. XRM 2 was even better... and if XRM 1 was hard as hell to stop, XRM 2 was impossible. This is my recollection of sup when I first started playing (under the last version of DN, I've been around since february '08 more or less), and it lasted until a few months ago. Without this win button, sup is not as good as it used to be. Because Sup has a harder time winning games now that XRM 2 is nerfed, expansion is a more appealing option than it was before (for commanders, at least). I would, because of how often exp is played in PUGs these days, like to see Sup have something of a foolproof win button. I believe this will improve the balance between the techpaths and give incentive for more commanders to command sup, and more pilots to pilot sup (because winning is fun).

However, as it was, XRM 2 was only slightly more expensive than figbees and significantly more effective. This meant that figbees saw very little play. Since the nerfing of XRM, we have seen the play of figbees rise greatly.

Here is, as you all know, the tech tree to get to figbees:
Sup->enh figs + dis2 + adv sup + bbr -> adv fig + galv -> figbee

that requires seven techs and three tiers (all tech between arrows constitute a tier, and they are tech that can be researched at the same time)

For comparison, here is the current tech tree to get to XRM 1 heavy bbrs:
Sup -> bbr + starbase + xrm -> heavy bbr

This is four techs and two tiers.

Here is my proposed tech tree for XRM 1 heavy bbrs:
Sup -> bbr + starbase + ab2 + adv sup -> heavy bbr + ab3 -> xrm

This is seven techs and three tiers, same as the current figbees, and these XRM would need to go all the way to XRM 2 to be the same as the old XRM 1.

So time, assuming infinite money, would be equal for both figbees and xrm heavy bbrs under my new plan, whereas XRM would be faster under the old ways. As for money,

Figbees would cost
Sup->enh figs + dis2 + adv sup + bbr -> adv fig + galv -> figbee
10000 + 7500 + 2500 + 25000 + 10000 + 10000 + 2500 + 5000, or 82500. (9.3 miner loads**)

It would take seven AB1 missiles to take down your standard adv techbase with a kb of 10, and I'd say the average run is about 10 figbees... which costs an additional 2500 to put out. So 85000 total to win the game, 87500 if they don't resign. Not bad, especially since you get your main defensive and offensive tech to go with it.

XRM Heavies would cost
Sup -> bbr + starbase + ab2 + adv sup -> heavy bbr + ab3 -> xrm
10000 + 10000 + 10000 + 2500 + 25000 + 10000 + 2500 + 2500, or 72500* (7.8 miner loads**)

If it takes 7 AB 1 missiles, it will take 32 XRM 1 (with my proposed damage) to take down an advanced techbase. Let's call that seven bbrs (four xrm each, four of them get an extra missile off) at $600 apiece gives us $4200 a run, or 76700 to win the game, $80900 if they don't chose to resign. As you can see, this is still some 6600 less than Figbees... but look at the build for figbees again. With this build you're defending with regular figs, with the other build you're not only defending with advanced figs, you also can galv them off the map to give your miners some breathing room.

I don't think 90/120 is too much damage for XRM 1/2, but I haven't been around too long so if any of you vets (Drizzo, Spidey, Aarm, Apoch, etc.) think it's too high, let me know.

As for XRP for our missile-less factions, I'm aware that they only go up to level 2 ab equipment. However, stinger2 costs what ab2 and ab3 costs, and overall the time is only really altered for TF, since rixian time is 12s anyways. It is an overall perk to TF's endgame, but as I read it TF is supposed to have an awesome endgame anyways so I don't see this as a problem.

*TEK gives a value of 92500, but don't be confused: it's deciding that your upgraded garrison is costing you 30k instead of 10k
**Miner loads are determined by taking the total amount of money, subtracting the standard starting cash ($16000) and dividing by the standard miner load ($7200). This represents the bare minimum number of miner loads required to get the tech in question, assuming the commander buys nothing else.

@Brood;
I think my plan also covers the problem of Bios rushing to XRM being so fast. According to my basic primitive "it's late and I don't want to think that much" calculations, it now takes 30 minutes instead of 20 minutes for Bios to get XRM... unhindered and with unlimited money, but I think you should check my work and tell me what you think because my brain is absolutely fried and there's no way I'm going to be able to keep research times steady in my head.

djrbk wrote:QUOTE (djrbk @ May 7 2009, 05:41 AM) * Keep XRM tied to SY on, and remove FBs (and related FB tech) from the SY on requirement.
FBs should not be tied to SY, I agree.

This is good.

The current half damage XRM shouldn't cost money / rack.

Broodwich wrote:QUOTE (Broodwich @ May 7 2009, 07:37 AM) Make XRM only researchable in SY (this could also be used to counter the bios xrm rush)

The full strength XRM would be ok if it was under SY.

My personal favorite would be to remove XRM entirely, and use the XRM cruise from SY. Probably so that you'd need an actual SY to get them, but so one could buy them in the basic SY. Probably too big a change though.

/edit I didn't think anybody missed XRM really. The games have been much better without them IMO.