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Mastametz wrote:QUOTE (Mastametz @ Sep 18 2006, 11:19 AM) TF only gets scouts (however awesome) to start with, and no prox, so very vulnerable to bomb rush.

A bomb rush that you'll spot easily because of the awesomeness of beacons. Camp, spam plas gens, defend sensibly (eg. kill nans don't just tickle the bomber) and your bomb rush is dead. Add a couple of SC towers and a TF bbr to the mix and you have no problems whatsoever (in theory of course /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> )

There was a reason I only mentioned the slow cons as a weakness. It is their only weakness and it can be easily fixed by buying enh cons.

Their low capacity miners ROCK. Place a ref in the middle of the he rocks and you get cash faster than you can spend.

Their bombers might have problems with killing an IC base, but IC will have a huge problem to kill a TF base after the 6 minute mark (Bomber research done). There is no better bomber for d than the TF Bomber. You can solo an incoming bomber at the aleph. With which six minute tech (apart from a fast bomber in a scout mine field) can you do that?

I always thought Dreg was the ideal faction against TF, a 30% increase in speed and starting Lt Ints are cool.

Then again, they're both Veggy Factions...if you get my drift. /mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" />

And FFS, IC Hvy Ints still rock, it all depends on the driver. For example, there's not many people that could beat Spliff in a IC Hvy Int, even if they had Hvy Snakes.

If you can dogfight at all, the scouts are easy to kill. They are fat targets that most people can't use effectively in a dogfight.

TB

One very small TF nerf that would help is increasing the signature of the towers. The one tech that could be effective vs TF because of their speed nerf is tac since they have nice slow bomb runs and sfs can stay out of range of plasmas. The problem with tac is that with just 1 tower next to a base it is extremely difficult to SB if the tower hasn't previously been spotted and taken out with sniper fire. Once you are close enough to spot the tower you rarely have the energy to take it out yourself or swing around to the other side of the base.

Raindog wrote:QUOTE (Raindog @ Sep 18 2006, 03:21 PM) One very small TF nerf that would help is increasing the signature of the towers.
<snip>

The problem with tac vs. skycap towers is that you can't cross the aleph, due to a combination of the "100% sig upon crossing aleph" thing and the towers' base scanrange of 1500. Since they're AoE, it doesn't really matter that you lose eye and evade, the explosions will pretty much still kill you.

I suppose this'll get better after the crossing aleph thing is patched and re-implemented.

p.s.

CronoDroid wrote:QUOTE (CronoDroid @ Sep 18 2006, 02:59 PM) I always thought Dreg was the ideal faction against TF, a 30% increase in speed and starting Lt Ints are cool.

It's 20%

I'll just address two of your points, Deng, because I don't have time for a long debate today, but-

plasgens have a range of 250. If you can't stay out of a sphere with radius 250 while dogfighting, you aren't very good at dogfighting.

with the recent TF fad, I've seen quite a few TF bomb runs. Around 25% of them have failed because the turrets were too stupid to stop shooting. Yes, I'm listing that as a weakness. TF bombers are very powerful, but they are slow as $#@! and their high acceleration actually means that maintaining a high pushing speed on them is difficult. Also, I think prox is probably marginally better than plasgen for a nantrain to have, especially if the nantrain has one or two good proxers.

But I was never trying to argue that TF isn't very strong- and I agree, overall their economy is very good, their ints are fantastic, their scouts are excellent tools for miner killing, their cons are difficult to stop, and they have a built-in miner D mechanism. My argument was simply that they have weaknesses, and that the reason they've been winning so much recently is that instead of exploiting those weaknesses, people have been trying to beat TF at its own game - usually with IC. It hasn't been working. To be more specific, people will go IC, expand very little, fail to push their early game advantage, congratulate themselves on having gotten IC heavy ints up in 25 minutes, and realize only then that they are royally $#@!ed as the game was over 15 minutes before. You can't leave BIOS alone for 25 minutes and expect to win- I don't see why the other slow research faction should be any different.

Lykourgos wrote:QUOTE (Lykourgos @ Sep 18 2006, 08:21 PM) plasgens have a range of 250. If you can't stay out of a sphere with radius 250 while dogfighting, you aren't very good at dogfighting.

We've gone over this about 15,000 times in the past, so why not do it one more time:

That's a pretty bogus argument, because you're assuming complete freedom in where to fight. That's only true in pointless duels, really. All other situations where it's relevant, you simply have no choice, as you're bound to a certain point (galving, attacking/defending cons, miner d, miner o, bomber d).

Also, not everyone lives on the same continent as the server. Hitting something consistently with minigun fire at ranges over 300m can be quite a problem, especially with certain people as targets.

But tell you what - I still wouldn't have a problem with plasgens, if they were target only, like rix drones. since they shoot anything, medium- to large-scale engagements are where they really shine, because you'll get owned by a plasgen someone dropped completely at random (and no, you can't stay outside of all the r=250m spheres... unless you want to be in the neighboring sector, naturally).

Lykourgos wrote:QUOTE (Lykourgos @ Sep 18 2006, 08:21 PM) You can't leave BIOS alone for 25 minutes and expect to win- I don't see why the other slow research faction should be any different.

If you're TF, sure you can.

edit: I realized I'm approaching this argument from the wrong side. It serves no purpose trying to convince you that plasgens are too strong. Instead, it suffices to show that plasgens are stronger than prox (and hence "no prox" cannot be listed as TF's weakness). Frankly, that should be pretty easy to see (especially given that your 250m statement, when applied to mines, becomes a 100m statement /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> ).

When prox becomes targeted, you can make plasgens targeted. Also, I think no prox is a weakness because it makes whoring in ints easier for the enemy (Boost through any aleph or rough sector).

TB

Dengaroth wrote:QUOTE (Dengaroth @ Sep 18 2006, 07:33 PM) Also, not everyone lives on the same continent as the server. Hitting something consistently with minigun fire at ranges over 300m can be quite a problem, especially with certain people as targets.

good thing plas gens dont move then /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

as for the "why dont you just shot them" argument, if you have troubly shooting them, this is one of the few times i would say you may want to use quickfires, they do work quite well for probe clearing, and if you practise , you can target the plas gen to fire the quickfire while aiming your guns on your target (this is quite hard, you get confused some times)
QUOTE edit: I realized I'm approaching this argument from the wrong side. It serves no purpose trying to convince you that plasgens are too strong. Instead, it suffices to show that plasgens are stronger than prox (and hence "no prox" cannot be listed as TF's weakness). Frankly, that should be pretty easy to see (especially given that your 250m statement, when applied to mines, becomes a 100m statement /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> ).[/quote]
apples are better than oranges because...
how many full bomber runs have you seen owned by one plas gen? how about a prox mine/mine pack?
mines can do insane ammounts of damage and easily kill a ship by them selves, plas gens cant

max damage mines can give out is
mp1: 1400
mp2: 2000
prox1: 2000
prox2: 2500
prox 3: 3000

:. mines are cheese, and plas gens suck, plasgens need to do loads more damage

now, i understand your arguments, and yes, i am presenting extreme cases to highlight the problems. plas gens used to be prox explosives, which did all the damage at once, they were changed so damage was spread over time so you had change to do omething about them (move out of range / kill the gen).