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Discussion / Announcement area for PCore development.
Terran
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Location: Ottawa

Post by Terran »

i don't mind the OH ints hitbox personally, i have a much bigger gripe with the fact that you can get adv dual tech with like, 3 sectors on high/high (i didn't check the numbers but you know what i mean)
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zombywoof
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Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

Regarding OH Econ:

Their cost for adv tech (basic mini1 hvy ints) is 53.5k, which is the same as IC and more than TF/Bios. They also have 5 minute research times and 5 minute tech con construction times. To get adv tech in 30 minutes after building 1 op and 1 tp only on high/high, they need to mine 4 rocks. Only Bios (3) is better, and the next lowest is Giga (5, thanks to their starting money and payday perks.) IC is 6.

Part of this is because OH has 1/1 starting money and payday while IC has (7/8)/(7/8) starting money and payday. The other part of the problem is OH has 1.0 mining speed while IC has .85 mining speed. OH also has .85 capacity to IC's .75. Since the "standard" capacity is 90 He3, OH miners pull in 76.5 he3 per load compared to IC's 67.5 Since each "unit" of HE3 is worth $80 before GAs:

IC Miner: $5400
OH Miner: $6120

(I should update my spreadsheet to take account alternate miner loads).

On HiHigher with 1.25/1.25 settings each He3 rock has 78 he3 on it at the start of the game (with a little more added on during the course of the game). IC miners then leave about $800 on every rock that they mine. OH doesn't. If we account for # of loads then, IC needs 7 loads while OH needs 5 for adv tech.

It's worth noting that this advantage lessens on 1/1 settings (OH needs 7 loads to IC's 9, which is only a 30% advantage for OH rather than a 40% advantage).

OH miners also mine considerably faster than IC. If the mining speed is 1 He3/s (I'm fairly sure it's faster but I cba to look it up now while I'm at work) then IC's mining speed is .85 He3/s and it fills up its cargo hold (of 67 he3) in 79s. OH's miners fill up their hold (77 he3) in 78s. For comparison, using these numbers a Dreg miner (notoriously slow miners) fill up their hold in 120s.

TL/DR if you didn't follow the math:

OH's problem isn't that their tech is too cheap, it's that their miners are too efficient and their payday/starting money is too high. They're comparable to IC's economy in every other way except that OH gets an extra 5k by virtue of not being IC and has faster, more efficient miners (they get money from mining 13% faster than IC).

Drac stuff will come when I get home and can properly use ICE.
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Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
ThePhantom032
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Location: Germany

Post by ThePhantom032 »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Sep 30 2014, 12:36 AM) -stuff-
thanks for that, I was just going to reduce mining speed by 10% thinking it may be enough but now I think it'll take a bit more (not much though) - especially starting money is important, as it greatly affects how fast you can get your econ running (and OH has no issue building everything asap right now unless on low money). Gotta think about what exactly to do (comparing with a couple other factions) and find a good balance for the values.

(Also lets not forget OH miners take 90s to build and IC 120, jumpstarting OH even more compared to IC)
Last edited by ThePhantom032 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Still ready to teach anyone who asks nicely whatever they want to know about playing alleg. Contrary to popular opinion I do not eat newbies. Voobs taste much better.
qqmwoarplox
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Post by qqmwoarplox »

Lets not forget our dear OH faction starts with figs and not lt ints!
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Draconomicon:

I've always felt the numbers for Drac were way out of left field. I appreciate some of the interesting things TA was trying to do with the faction, but I wonder if there weren't better ways to do it. First, I find that their hull is incredibly high. At 1.15 hull, their adv figs have 517 HP. They also have 213 shields for a combined value of 730 HP on their figs. Most Hvy Ints are at 750 or less (IC hvy int is at 712, Giga and Dreg are 637). Most faction's figs on the other hand are at 675 total HP (450 hull, 225 shield).

What's more damning is their hvy int's HP. At a whopping 860 HP, they blow the next best (Belters at 787) out of the water. But Belters hvy ints have something special: they have 50% more mass. Now the thing to understand about ints is that they're all about the acceleration impact from their boosters as just about any experienced int pilot will tell you. Lt Booster was never a serious option on hvies because it doesn't have the "we're going there NOW" effect of afterburner. The problem is; however, that you don't have a specific afterburner for each faction. That means that a Belters int has boosters that are only 66% as effective as other hvy ints. In addition, while they do have a max thrust bonus, it's only a 33% increase, so their acceleration suffers as a result. Specifically, they have about 73% of the acceleration other hvy interceptors have.

This comes with the advantages of carrying dumbfires, a nan in the first slot, and a pile of HP. Also with being absolutely huge and nearly impossible to miss, even for someone with middling aim like myself.

Now let's look at what Mr. Vogue said about the enh miners. Enh miners use MEd shield and have 1320 HP normally. We'll assume it's med shield 2 which has 400 HP. With Drac modifiers, the Miner had 1900 HP. Mini1 has a dm class of .5 vs med shield and .2 vs utility. Hvy ints have 450 ammo and PW mini1 fires projectile 49, using 1 ammo per shot. Projectile 49 deals 4 damage per shot meaning that Vogue's hvy int, before faction modifiers, GAs, or KB, can deal 5400 raw damage with one ammo rack. Vogue said he had damage 2 and we'll assume he has a 30 kb because Vogue is an excellent int pilot, meaning that he dealt 8500 raw damage if he landed every shot. The miner can take a raw 8350 damage. So now our question as to whether or not Vogue landed *every* bullet adds some questions:

Was this a Drac sup team? (Then we can include shield GA and hull GA and it stops being close)
What's the regen rate for med shield 2 and how long does it take for mini1 to run out of ammo?

The answer to the second question is med shield 2 for drac has a regen rate of 6.65/second which would take it 23 seconds to regen 150 HP of damage. Question is then, does it take longer than 23 seconds to empty a hvy int of ammo?

A hvy int with mini1 has 450 ammo (previously established) and fires 37.5 times per second. It also takes 5 seconds to reload, which Vogue will have to do twice. It takes a hvy int 12 seconds to unload its ammo reserves, so Vogue was shooting at this thing for 46 seconds... plenty of time. It's established then that with a 30 kb and damage 2, a hvy int cannot kill an enh drac miner. Specifically, Vogue deals 8500 damage but needs to deal 8655 damage to kill the miner.

So what offsets this incredible Drac toughness? The answer is a slightly lower PW damage (.9) and slightly longer ripcord time (5%).

Oh also their econ is bad. They need to mine more money than anyone except Dreg... and actually need to mine the most helium. This disadvantage actually goes away as money is lowered (on 1/1 settings they are tied with Rix and Dreg at needing 10 rocks mined for TP/Ref + Op + mini1 hvy ints), but either way Drac has a pretty poor economy.

But what does .9 PW damage really mean? Before we discussed Vogue's hvy int as dealing 8500 total damage. Drac hvy ints only deal 7650 damage. A normal enh miner (1320 util hull, 400 med shield 2, 7 regen per second) would need 77222 damage from the Drac hvy before being destroyed.

Another IMPORTANT thing to look at in terms of hull is how tough the bbrs are. Most bbrs can kill an OP with 3 missiles assuming 0 KB. The math here is somewhat complicated but the first missile mostly blows the shields, the second missile blows the shields and a significant portion of the hull, and the third missile blows the hull. Drac can also do it in 3 AB1 missiles, which I think is a small problem. If you dropped their missile damage to .9; however, 0 KB bbrs would only be able to blow up an outpost in 4 missiles rather than the normal 3, which would give defenders a bit more time to deal with the thick-as-$#@! hull they have to chew through.

If I were in charge of the core, I'd drop Drac's damage levels to .85 PW and .9 missile. The whole point, as far as I can tell, of Draconium is that they're hard as hell to kill but it's also hard as hell to kill anything with them. I like that tradeoff of damage for hull... but the trade has to be roughly equivalent which it currently is not. Ducking some more damage off the top would, IMO, preserve the faction's flavor while bringing them in line with other factions.

EDIT:
qqqqqq wrote:QUOTE (qqqqqq @ Sep 29 2014, 07:20 PM) Lets not forget our dear OH faction starts with figs and not lt ints!
This has to do with their econ how exactly? Because they defend "less well" than other factions? I feel like the last two times Xexy went up against Element we started with patties and lost 0 miners to your dreg lt ints.

The point is that OH isn't necessarily undercosted, they're just a little too powerful and efficient in the econ department. They cost the same as IC but they don't have IC's econ disadvantages.
Last edited by zombywoof on Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
ThePhantom032
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Location: Germany

Post by ThePhantom032 »

While OH doesnt have ICs econ advantages IC has other advantages - ripping miners, ungalvable and tougher bases, 5% more pw/ew damage (10% for missiles, compared to OH), 20% more ammo and energy, 2 minutes research (3/4 for tech upgrades/tech base) instead of 5... Its actually quite a list of perks compared to what OH has.

Which is why I'm not going to reduce OHs econ all the way to IC levels, just a bit.


And yes drac got "a bit" (okay, a lot) of overcompensation for the dmg nerf. definitely going to scale the hull down by at least 5%, maybe more. If not more then other stuff will get nerfed. Will have to ask TA which way he wants the faction to go.

Guess I'll have to get around to actually doing this and spending some time number crunching for both this and the mentioned ship size issues... not this weekend, but I can probably push out something around the 10th.
Still ready to teach anyone who asks nicely whatever they want to know about playing alleg. Contrary to popular opinion I do not eat newbies. Voobs taste much better.
TheAlaskan
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:15 am
Location: Denver, CO

Post by TheAlaskan »

Draconium is now the community's faction to balance as it pleases. Cheers :cool:
ThePhantom032
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Location: Germany

Post by ThePhantom032 »

I'll delete it then to save some texture space :P
Still ready to teach anyone who asks nicely whatever they want to know about playing alleg. Contrary to popular opinion I do not eat newbies. Voobs taste much better.
zombywoof
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

I think scaling down their damage is preferable to scaling down their hull if just to preserve faction flavor. A combined 10% nerf on damage (from missile and PW) should do it IMO. Makes it hard for a solo drac int to kill anything.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
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