belter bomb runs are too powerful

Post by **Dome** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:30 pm

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Sep 17 2012, 03:26 PM) Belter scouts had the boosters forever - but there have been boosts to Belters that would strengthen them.

Most significantly fighters used to be able to carry only 1 mg. Somewhere in DN or CC they were allowed to mount two. That essentially makes them (vs exp, which is pretty common of course) mg3 basic ints that can rip and carry missiles (don't forget about 21% sup hull upgrade so we are talking 900+ light hp here)

Less significant but adding to the issue metz is bitching about is light boosters on bombers.

There could be other stuff in there if I try and dig it out but those two are pretty non-sensical.

The issue is belters bombers being able to fly 100-200mps straight through aleph prox camps, while all their support nans are nanning the bomber and then each other. RT made it clear this strategy is OP by CONTINUALLY bombing nonstop so we all had to stay on d to defend time after time after time. With the smallish teams (8v8-12v12) there is literally no way to do anything but defend otherwise you lose your tech and the game is over.

The only viable strat against it is bomb rushing yourself. It makes the game so one dimensional.

Mastametz · Post by **Mastametz** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Assume 10v10 teams, belters can do the buddy system and send out 4-5 different pairs of bomber+scout rammers to 4-5 different places. Not only is it impossible to stop them all, it is unlikely that you'll be able to stop one. the damn things are durable like capships, but stupidly fast.

and they will not scale well at any team size. it's all the worse with smaller teams.

and it doesn't matter if you kill all their miners while they bomb, because after they buy bombers/enh figs/hull1 at the start of the game, they don't need money anymore. if you kill all their miners it doesn't matter, and if you don't then they can just spam tech bases. oh and the whole not losing enh ships things, so killing their tech bases really makes little difference. they only need t1/2 tech to win at any point in a game, even against t3.

this how most PuG games are won
and this is how sf/bs was easily winning games through the league, despite being against superior comms/pilots/teams/squads (though NI actually did beat while they were doing that, so don't feed me that *you just can't beat their superior tactic* @#(!)

dusanc · Post by **dusanc** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:38 am

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 18 2012, 12:35 AM) Assume 10v10 teams, belters can do the buddy system and send out 4-5 different pairs of bomber+scout rammers to 4-5 different places. Not only is it impossible to stop them all, it is unlikely that you'll be able to stop one. the damn things are durable like capships, but stupidly fast.

and they will not scale well at any team size. it's all the worse with smaller teams.

and it doesn't matter if you kill all their miners while they bomb, because after they buy bombers/enh figs/hull1 at the start of the game, they don't need money anymore. if you kill all their miners it doesn't matter, and if you don't then they can just spam tech bases. oh and the whole not losing enh ships things, so killing their tech bases really makes little difference. they only need t1/2 tech to win at any point in a game, even against t3.

this how most PuG games are won
and this is how sf/bs was easily winning games through the league, despite being against superior comms/pilots/teams/squads (though NI actually did beat while they were doing that, so don't feed me that *you just can't beat their superior tactic* @#(!)

As I think more about this I tend to agree with Masta....

I think that we should do something about bbr/small ship mass ratio so that rams shouldn't add that much to speed, up to 25% max, not like this 200mps bbrs.

Raven_42 · Post by **Raven_42** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:48 am

Could the exponential slowdown effect be reserved for the ram-issue ships? The endgame ships, whose eye-to-die time on bases is critical to the balance in terms of players dedicated to the run vs players dedicated to defend (bbrs, tts). This does sound like a potential mess in the code, I dunno, but i'm stuck for a better way.

qqmwoarplox · Post by **qqmwoarplox** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:15 pm

Nah just turn ff on whenever you see belters

lexaal · Post by **lexaal** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:44 pm

The problems of belters lately was that all rank 10+ players were in the same team or logged off.

Mastametz · Post by **Mastametz** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:49 pm

The problem with belters is that it takes no little or coordination on the commander or pilot level to win
but takes tons to stop it

boe · Post by **boe** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:57 pm

Yes belt SUP/TAC is good.. but their EXP sux really bad.. it used to be good with nanning ints.
And once in a while you get a map with majority U rocks.

I guess you could finetune the game endlessly..

Raven_42 wrote:QUOTE (Raven_42 @ Sep 17 2012, 11:19 AM) I was thinking, if you can find the code that applies drag when you are over the ships maximum speed, and make the effect exponentially increased as you hit multiples of this speed, you would fix the problem no bother. (So say the bbr cruises at 60, when it gets rammed to 70 it slowly loses that speed, but if it got rammed near 120, it would lose it twice as fast, if it got to 180 it would lose it 3 times as fast). But as I say, I think this is a code issue more than core.

Raven's idea could be a solid fix. BUT..
* In space should there really be high drags ?
(I know alleg has drag, just in the way StarWars have sound in space).

Heres my thought.. hate it or like it..
* Collision inertia is a cool idea, but maybe rammings should have very high "death rates" ?
(This seems logical, but it would change how this game will be played..
"rammbombing" and not only with Belts is a fun aspect of this game.
If ramming would really work reallife.. wouldnt cargo ships/trucks use it.. lol.
Well there are tugboats, but they push/pull.. they dont really ram..
And things tugboats push/pull go really slow.).
(PS: i mean even "FF OFF", all player controlled small ship rammings = 90% fatality for smallship @ 50mps or so.).

This actually kills "rammbombing" but also should kill the possibility of rammkilling a miner solo
(i mean maybe 5 small ship ramming it should still kill the miner).

Anyway... ppl where are u !?!?!?!?
EU workday primetime seems to bea soo dead !?!?!?!
I check lobby every day.. cant get any games... getting tired of this.
Visiting forums only because there is no game.

PS:

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 19 2012, 10:49 PM) The problem with belters is that it takes no little or coordination on the commander or pilot level to win
but takes tons to stop it

This is not a game balance issue at all.
Its a TEAM balance issue.

Get rookies vs rookies..
* All ppl who can aim and fly fairly,
* but know tactics very poorly (exept commander).
1) Belter commander now has to coordinate all bombings.
(To the details of rammings and taking sanc in scout cargo).
2) Other commander has to coordinate defence vs.
2 ppl bombing and some offence.

Apply game rules to this situation and im quite sure you will
find tha game to be winnable to both sides.
A major commanding error on defending side is to use all players for defence.
Then its not even TEAM balance issue, its Commander's stupidity.

... I totally agree this tactic is hard to counter in the particular situation WHEN:
1) Belter side has 2 or more people who already know how to use this boostboming.
2) Defending side has no clue how to defeat this... either all team sits on aleph, nobody probes at all or everyone are on offence with no way to get home quick.This can result in quick loss of hard to get tech bases.

Taking a parallel... TAC is hard to counter in the particular situation WHEN:
1) You have people who already know how to efficiently use SF and also find enemy miners.
2) Defending side all sit on miner D, while already having lost some miners and let TAC team freemine.

As TAC is stoppable... I refuse to beleave this already well tested belt. bombing
cheese is unstoppable by a proper team/commander .

Any EU ppl !! lets get EU workday primetimes rolling !!!

Mastametz · Post by **Mastametz** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:01 pm

I really don't fancy the idea of taking effective ramming-bombing/htting out of the game
it is specifically belters that is the problem

boe · Post by **boe** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:40 pm

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 19 2012, 11:01 PM) it is specifically belters that is the problem

Sorry you were faster.. read my answer up.. i put it real simple.. should be understandable..
Signing off forums for very many days..

A memory...

Metz if i remember correclty i was in your team when you lost vs that belt bombings..
It waaas 10v10-ish.. i beleave...
I was probing 95% of that game.. its why we could stop some bombers.
But generally our team was not split to Defence and Offence.. most of the time everyone was Defence.
And when we lost our tech bases.. it was because of uneyed bombrun.. i just couldn't probe fast enought alone vs 2x 2man bombrunners.

Also the ship used to defend (PT bbr) was at many times poor choice,
because after belters got past PT, the PT had no more opportunity to damage the bomber or its NAN's.
Thats how we lost some small bases.

I guess Figs, Dumbfires + minepac.. i somehow soloed xJ bombrun with a Fig once.. xJ ran too far from (nanscout)bbr, when i damaged him.. ramming stopped and i took out bbr. Not that game tho.. i was busy probing that game, and we had PT and Ints only i beleave.
So a ratio of 1 Fig defending on 2 ppl attack sounds fun