Call for volunteers: merging Allegiance into FS2

[MatthTheGeek]

Wall of text incoming. Brace for impact.

QUOTE (juckto @ Aug 3 2011, 02:24 PM) I'm taking it as a given that:
it's going to be a team-based game with players controlling individual ships and working together to destroy enemy space stations. the team will be led by a single commander who controls the money. miners and constructors exist pretty much as they do in Allegiance.the map will be divided up into sectors joined by "jump points".when a player is killed, they are put in a lifepod and must float home.the techpaths remain similar to Allegiance.the physics of ship movement and combat remain similar to Allegiance.small ships will remain free to fly.players can customise the loadout of their ships before launching.tech costs will be balanced around limited resources being available.

Looks like a solid list of core features to emulate in FSO to me. I'm noting it down. Physics are the easy part. Most of the command-related features will likely require scripting, but are in the domain of the possible, just not of my own skills. We'll have to recruit someone with LUA experience at some point.

QUOTE (juckto @ Aug 3 2011, 02:24 PM) The questions I want to pose are:
How will you do "fog of war"? Will you retain Allegiance's scan and signature system?How will you minimise bandwidth, i.e. will players only receive updates from their current sector?Will you explore the idea of jump gates being buildable/destroyable?Will you prevent manual travel between sectors? i.e. if the enemy are camping in one sector, should you be able to just drive to their area of the map after 5, 10, 15 very boring minutes to avoid the camp? Will asteroids still be locked in one position, drift through a sector, or orbit around a sector?If asteroids are not locked, then what happens to a station when it is built? It could be interesting if stations retain the orbit of the asteroid they were built on.Will you overhaul the shipyard techpath?Will you overhaul the damage and armour class system?Will you add more "equipment slots" to craft?Will you overhaul the missile lock/countermeasures system? Especially since it doesn't work for large ships (CM spawns behind ship)Will you overhaul the turret system? I think that would be a good step towards letting capships scale with game size?Will players be able to transfer stations instantly? Or should there be a spawn delay based on how far apart the stations are?Will players be able to spawn from mobile units (i.e. carriers)?Should stations/carriers have a spawn/minute limit? Instead of the old "ships ripcording to a carrier reduce its energy" mechanic.How many factions will you aim to get in the alpha, how many in the beta, how many in first stable build?Will you still be able to steal tech from enemy teams?Will there be a command view?Placeholder

That one is a little problematic. You can have limited sensor range in FS, but only in nebulae as far as I know. In deep space, you have unlimited range. The concept is there though, should be possible to trigger it in more general circumstances code-side.Highly dependant on what improvements we can get to the network code. As it is now, not possible.Definitely possible. Can be implemented as a variant of the standard gameplay - unless it's already a standard feature in Allegiance ?Not sure what you mean here. Keep in mind that I have barely played through half the tutorial. It's definitely possible to teleport a player under certain circumstances. What these circumstances are is up to the map design.Probably locked, especially since miners/builders behaviour will have to be heavily scripted.Same answer.I do not know what the techpath looks like right now. But again, variants can be made.Not sure what you mean here too, but damage and armor types have been implemented in FSO a few years ago, and switchable on-the-fly to boot.FS crafts only have primary (lasers), secondary (missiles) and countermeasures slots, but it's possible to emulate equipment slots by making dummy primaries/secondaries that don't do damage but trigger an event when fired.The mod War in Heaven Part 2 will feature capital ships with flare-like countermeasures that aren't launched only backward, in a similar fashion to this. This mod isn't released yet, but consider it'll be possible.Player-controlled turrets are possible through scripts, if that's what you meant.See the remark above about teleporting ships.Same.Will depend on gameplay variants I guess.What do you mean by "faction" ? If you mean how many teams in a game, we'll probably stick on two for now, especially since we're stuck with 12 players until we get any significant interface and network code rewrite. If you mean how many races and ships available, we'll probably use retail ships until we either convert Allegiance ships or get our own model pool. There is a significant number of good fan-made ships hanging around and ready for use.I guess that's doable through scripting too. I don't know what are the stealing conditions in Allegiance.This has been doable through scripts. We'll start from that for our command interface.Random answer.

QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 3 2011, 04:26 PM) I'm not worried about MS models license because of their global Game Content Usage Rules (although Allegiance isn't explicitly named here, last time I checked for another project it was covered).
But I'm pretty sure we won't reuse a lot of Allegiance artwork anyway. May be some icons at start.

Depends if players want to stick to Allegiance ship designs or are ready to use retail FS and/or other fan-made ships. You can browse fan-made ships here. We'll probably stick to retail ships at start, if only as placeholders. And remember we can still have mod variants.

QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 3 2011, 04:26 PM) Remember also that we're not trying to build an 100% exact Allegiance clone.

Well, I'd try to get as close as possible to it. Emulating the core features, then moving in to smaller details.

QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 3 2011, 04:26 PM) Your points & questions clearly show that you think in an Allegiance way where everything is either fixed in the code or values in a core.

But in the FreeSpace way of thinking, it's all about the mission script(s). When you set up a game with other people you chose a mod and then a mission script. It's the mission that determines most of what will happen and what can be done. One can design a mission which mimics a typical Allegiance 'conquest' game with miners, cons, commanders, etc. But you can design missions that only have some of these elements and other different elements. you can have the money coming from different ways, you can have full AI controlled sides, you can have dynamic 'big' events happening any time during the game, a lot of things can be scripted.

Yes. Since I have no idea to what extent Allegiance is moddable, I didn't brought that point up, but keep in mind that FSO is highly moddable. You can have multiple mods installed, switch from one to another through a couple of clicks, and have mods sharing similar assets between them. Eventually we'll have one core Allegiance mod, from which people can build mods of the... mod. And yes, there is also the stuff that is map-dependant. Many opportunities to make variants to please everyone.

QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 3 2011, 04:26 PM) The point at which we are now is determining what can be done with current FS code and mission editor (it's called FRED). Then we will know what are the required code changes (high level LUA scripting or lower level engine C++ code) to do other the things that can't currently be done.

Yes. Scripting and code changes will be required. We just have to determine where and how much.

QUOTE (girlyboy @ Aug 3 2011, 06:52 PM) Escape pods -- when I first read about Allegiance somewhere long, long ago I remember they were presented as one of the ways Allegiance takes a regular multiplayer game element (re-spawning after death) and actually turns it into an interesting and unique part of gameplay. I think they're just great gameplay, and if they can be replicated, they should be, methinks.

Should be doable. When the player reaches 1% health, guardian it (make it invulnerable) and change ship class to escape pod. When he's near the station, change it back to fighter class or whatever you want. It should just take a few lines of sexps in FRED.

QUOTE (girlyboy @ Aug 3 2011, 06:52 PM) On the other hand, I feel kind of bad making a bunch of requests. I have to say I disagree with MrC quite completely here -- this looks more like someone from another, bigger community that actually has active coders descending from the heavens and saving us all.

That is so true. SCP dudes are real heroes down here. Allegiance-unrelated, this is one of the latest awesome they cooked us. I wouldn't be here talking about making an Allegiance port if it weren't for all the amazing job they've already done and keep doing.

[Spunkmeyer]

I'm with KG here, you shouldn't worry about emulating Allegiance to a high degree. A lot of the stuff in Allegiance is implementation choices. A sophisticated commander seat, rich RTS mechanics, the scan & signature system, escape pods and excellent network code. That's all that's needed to make this successful.

Even though it's not necessary to make the game playable, part of the implementation will have to be the matchmaking interface that can ensure balanced teams. Allegiance is fairly unique in that it DEMANDS commanders of similar skill and players of a similar skill on both teams for a good game. All we have working right now is a variant of MS TrueSkill system to rank each player. It works, somewhat, but there is more work to be done.

[juckto]

QUOTE (MatthTheGeek @ Aug 4 2011, 05:57 AM) That one is a little problematic. You can have limited sensor range in FS, but only in nebulae as far as I know. In deep space, you have unlimited range. The concept is there though, should be possible to trigger it in more general circumstances code-side.Highly dependant on what improvements we can get to the network code. As it is now, not possible.Definitely possible. Can be implemented as a variant of the standard gameplay - unless it's already a standard feature in Allegiance ?Not sure what you mean here. Keep in mind that I have barely played through half the tutorial. It's definitely possible to teleport a player under certain circumstances. What these circumstances are is up to the map design.Probably locked, especially since miners/builders behaviour will have to be heavily scripted.Same answer.I do not know what the techpath looks like right now. But again, variants can be made.Not sure what you mean here too, but damage and armor types have been implemented in FSO a few years ago, and switchable on-the-fly to boot.FS crafts only have primary (lasers), secondary (missiles) and countermeasures slots, but it's possible to emulate equipment slots by making dummy primaries/secondaries that don't do damage but trigger an event when fired.The mod War in Heaven Part 2 will feature capital ships with flare-like countermeasures that aren't launched only backward, in a similar fashion to this. This mod isn't released yet, but consider it'll be possible.Player-controlled turrets are possible through scripts, if that's what you meant.See the remark above about teleporting ships.Same.Will depend on gameplay variants I guess.What do you mean by "faction" ? If you mean how many teams in a game, we'll probably stick on two for now, especially since we're stuck with 12 players until we get any significant interface and network code rewrite. If you mean how many races and ships available, we'll probably use retail ships until we either convert Allegiance ships or get our own model pool. There is a significant number of good fan-made ships hanging around and ready for use.I guess that's doable through scripting too. I don't know what are the stealing conditions in Allegiance.This has been doable through scripts. We'll start from that for our command interface.Random answer.

OkOkStandard Allegiance has alephs remain constant throughout the game. Also, that makes me think of another question (see r)To rephrase the quesion: Will there be any physical barrier between sectors? Or would a player be able circumvent the jump gates and travel between sectors by just flying in a straight line for long enough? This is important because a large part of Allegiance is camping alephs (= wormholes / jump points) and preventing enemy movements into your sectors.OkOkThis question was more aimed at Allegites/KageAs aboveAllegiance has weapon slots (which weapons a ship can mount are editable. For instance an interceptor can only mount miniguns), missile slots, dispenser slots (which could do with being expanded), cloaking device slot, shield slot, booster slot, turret slots (can only be used by another player). It could be useful to add a "teleporter" and "teleport receiver" slot. OkThis question was more aimed at Allegites/KageAs aboveSpawning (launching from a base) is treated differently to teleporting in Allegiance. In Allegiance you sit in base and can transfer to any station that has a launch point (and do so instantly) and then click launch to spawn outside that station. Once you're outside, you can teleport to anything that is set to receive a teleporter. Generally these are teleporter receiver stations, which can accept an infinite number of pilots teleporting in, and carriers where each player that rips in drains the carriers energy reserves, and it slowly recharges.
Some ships can not teleport, so having a "mobile station" that they can spawn from would be a big change.Ok"Faction" is "Race". There are about 9 in the main version of Allegiance. 4 of which have been made by players. There's more player-made factions in non-standard versions and others which have never been implemented.When a ship is destroyed some of the equipment it was carrying is randomly spawned and sent flying out like debris. Most of the time it is just fuel and ammo, but sometimes they will drop something that your team doesn't have. If you collect it and bring it back to base, then your team immediately "has it" without having to spend the time or money on researching it.OkIn Allegiance the "map" is just a certain layout of sectors and alephs. Sector A connects to B and C, B connects to A and X and Y, C connects to A and X and Z, etc. Every time a game is launched the location of asteroids and alephs within a sector are randomly generated, meaning each time you play a game it is different. Will you be able to implement a similar element of randomness into the maps?Also need to consider Security - preventing player impersonation, game disruption, etcand Game balance - tracking player's wins/losses, assigning ranks, allowing players to see if teams are balancedWill players be able to join a game in progress?More place holding.

[MatthTheGeek]

d. I can easily make sectors as spheres centered on a point. If a ship moves too far from that point, change its rotation to pointing toward the center, or just teleport it further inside the sphere. Should effectively prevent going out of the sectors, and is just a couple of lines of sexps in FRED. I'm sure more elaborate and less hackish systems can be made, but that's what comes immediately to my mind and should work.

m. That will require some compromising, as you are always in a cockpit in Freespace. You can't have a "station" menu and loadout screen after the game has started, and players can't physically launch from a fighterbay either. That means we'll need an interface for changing one's loadout ingame, that triggers when you're near the station, for example. Should be doable with scripts.
As for the teleporting part, it can be restricted by ship class, if that's what you're wondering. The energy thing for carriers can probably be emulated via scripts or sexps too.

o. Factions belong to what I'd call the "asset" part of the conversion, that is basically the easiest part, and that you can consider as basically granted as long as someone wants to do it. I'm more focused on gameplay mechanics specific to Allegiance, in term of what you could call "game rules", which is what will require all the scripting and coding, and which is mostly separate from the "asset" part. Eventually, the "game rules" part may be plugged in on any FS mod with little changes, so you can play an Allegiance-like with FS2 retail or Blue Planet, for example.

p. That might be tricky. There is no such thing as collectable objects in any FS mod that I know of, and I can't think of anything right now to emulate that nicely. Not saying it's not doable though, but as such, consider it a low priority.

r. Random generation is something that might quickly become very hairy. Especially when we'll have to heavily script the miner and builder behavior. Consider it a low priority too, especially at the beginning. Since it's kind of a core feature, that's something that we'll have to try to implement at some point though.

s. Given the number of players we usually get in FS multi, that's not really something I considered. That probably goes somewhere in the network code overhaul, which isn't my part here.

t. There's a ranking system in FS, but it'll require code additions for the game to actually take it into account gameplay-wise. As it is now it's just a bunch of medals that look nice on your player profile.

u. That's in the network code overhaul category too. Such a feature had been worked on at some point in the past, but didn't work and was scrapped.

[juckto]

QUOTE m. That will require some compromising, as you are always in a cockpit in Freespace. You can't have a "station" menu and loadout screen after the game has started, and players can't physically launch from a fighterbay either. That means we'll need an interface for changing one's loadout ingame, that triggers when you're near the station, for example. Should be doable with scripts.[/quote]
See now that's interesting. In Allegiance you are either in base, where you can:
F3 - Change to "Command View" and look at every sector in the game. This is the best way for analysing what is currently going on and decide where you need to go next.F4 - Choose which ship you are going to fly when you launch.F4 - Customise the loadouts in every ship that is available, and save it for next time you want to launch it.F5 - Look at the research menu and see what your commander is investing in.F6 - Look at team lists and see where each player and constructor and miner is (or was last spotted), and see what they're flying (or were flying when last spotted).F7 - Toggle the minimap displayF8 - Transfer to another station that has a launch bay, or the turret on another player's shipWhen you launch, you launch in a fully repaired and reloaded ship even if you only docked 0.5 seconds ago.

Once you're out of base, you can:
Teleport to a station or ship that is teleport receivableF3 - Change to "Command View" but only look at the sector you are within.F4 - Choose which equipment is mounted and which is being stored in your cargo hold.F5 - Look at the research menu and see what your commander is investing in.F6 - Look at team lists and see where each player and constructor and miner is (or was last spotted), and see what they're flying (or were flying when last spotted).F7 - Toggle the minimap displayF8 - Unavailable

So, in the mod, I imagine that you'll have to park near the "launch bay" and then be repaired, reloaded, able to change loadouts, able to change ships.
As to transferring bases (say to one that is under attack), you'll (you being the developers) have to choose between:
never being able to transfer between stations. Instead players teleport to teleport receivers and drive to "repair yards" just to change/reload ships.
This means you'd need to eliminate ships that cannot teleport from the game entirely.Implement two forms of teleportation - one which "teleports" you to a "launch bay" but can only be used when you're near a "launch bay", and a second which allows you to teleport to teleport receivers wherever you are.

Also, I feel that giving players some method of looking at a command view and anaylsing the whole map, instead of just there nearby surroundings, is essential to keeping the RTS element of Allegiance.

[Makida]

QUOTE (MatthTheGeek @ Aug 3 2011, 08:39 PM) d. I can easily make sectors as spheres centered on a point. If a ship moves too far from that point, change its rotation to pointing toward the center, or just teleport it further inside the sphere. Should effectively prevent going out of the sectors, and is just a couple of lines of sexps in FRED. I'm sure more elaborate and less hackish systems can be made, but that's what comes immediately to my mind and should work.

Allegiance handles this by damaging ships as soon as they leave the sector boundary; they have to turn around, or soon be destroyed.

(m) up there does sound like a problem. There can be all sorts of compromises, but being able to change your ship and loadout during the game is... very essential to Allegiance. You have to be able to start in a scout to explore the map, then change to an interceptor to attack some miners, then to a scout again, but with a different load-out, to defend your own, then a bomber to lead the attack on an enemy base, etc., etc.

[Solamnus]

I think it would be nice to have maps with multiple spawning positions for teams, so that initial team positions will not be easily predictible adding more scouting fun to the game

[KGJV]

QUOTE (girlyboy @ Aug 4 2011, 07:27 AM) then change to an interceptor to attack some miners

That's Allexpiance no?

more seriously I'd agree that one of the key features of Allegiance is the ability for players to freely choose and change ship.
In Allegiance this can happen when 'docked' but in FS port it could be something else like when 'near a station' or 'near some kind of special ship'.

The ability to choose the ship loadout is less important because it can be implemented by adding more ships to choose from (more on that when forum is up).

The other key feature is that the available ships are determined by the technology advancement (research done) and possession (special bases owned) of the team (that's the team RTS part of the game).

IMHO, these 2 very fundamental gameplay elements : choose ship and available ships are based on some 'team wide' tech progress and tech possession (can be stations like in Allegiance but could be some special ships (homeworld like) or whatever you can think of).

Just keep an open mind when an Allegiance feature can't exactly be reproduced in FS.

Who knows, may be the FS way of implementing some features might actually be way more fun to play than the Allegiance way.

Remember not everything is fun or well designed in Allegiance, it's just that we are too used to these defaults.

[Makida]

Replacing stations with big carrier-like ships actually sounds really fun in its own way.

[WolfDeSol]

QUOTE (MatthTheGeek @ Aug 3 2011, 03:57 PM) There is a significant number of good fan-made ships hanging around and ready for use.

and they look awesome by the way.

just a quick question,
In alleg cap ships (with some exceptions) are all piloted (and turreted) by players much the same way that players pilot the fighters, so my question is can fs2 enable direct control of these assets or would they be just ai controlled (under comm supervision) with automatic turrets?

not that it would be a bad thing ether way, just something i was wondering.