There have been numerous complaints about Bios being too strong over the last while and its time we got some constructive feedback and people's opinion on what should change.
Here's a list I stole from spidey:QUOTE (spideycw)So, it seems to be more than past time we attempt to hit Bios with the nerf bat again. Things I have seen, though feel free to add your own.
1) Remove Prox from Fighters
2) Fix scale of Fig Model
3) Remove/Reduce paydays
4) Reduce Yield/Mining Speed
5) Increase Con Build Time
6) Increase mass of their small ships to normal
1) This will reduce the ability of bios to defend so easily early on against teams that go for con/bomber pushes with starting tech. This was suggested and voted down last year. Click here to see the discussion thread.
2) This will let you actually hit the $#@!ing thing (which can already get close/escape with use of cloak)
3) This will mean bios actually needs to have more of an economy than it has now instead of just getting 15k for a techbase and defending for an hour
4) This will slow Bios's start and not allow them to so quickly mine out or gain as much money from 2 sectors which is all they really need
5) Bios expands faster than nearly every faction due to their quick con build times. They almost have their second tp out before some factions opening op have even left their home. For a comeback faction this might be a change that makes since in terms actually keeping them from taking so much map early on.
6) Bios small ships already have a bonus to fuel to make up for the weight of their heavy cloak. Increasing their mass to match other factions' will make their ships easier to kill, especially when they aren't mounting a cloak.[/quote]
Feel free to suggest more, but please reinforce your suggestions with some good reasoning as to why. Sillyness will be moderated. Also you can agree with as many of the above changes as you want. Depending on feedback we might throw a poll up later, or just go on the replies to this thread. Your feedback counts!
Discussion of Bios changes
I would prefer one of the first two options. The rest are more integral to the faction's moxy (minus the mass one, but I love the handling too much to nominate that one).
What makes bios so strong now, is that it's really difficult to stop it's early game, which traditionally is how you beat it. Removing the fig prox or raising the scale of figs will make their early game easier to beat. I think doing both will be too much, so one or the other.
What makes bios so strong now, is that it's really difficult to stop it's early game, which traditionally is how you beat it. Removing the fig prox or raising the scale of figs will make their early game easier to beat. I think doing both will be too much, so one or the other.
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NightRychune
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- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:00 am
I feel that instead of targeting Bios specifically with nerfs, we should look at the tech path and the few things that make them consistently so powerful: Sup and Gunships. I've seen more than a few bios teams go tac or exp and meet with nowhere near the same success rate as they do with sup, and I think gunships are part of the problem as well: For 5k, a very low investment with bios, you get a ship that, with a little support, can very easily engage equal-sized groups of mid-tech level ships and completely annihilate them.
I would prefer to see this reigned in by increasing their fig size, removing their prox, and reducing the projectile velocity of skycap 1 to pre-DN levels (essentially a 50% reduction from what it is now) in order to reduce gunship's capacity to engage and destroy targets at long range.
As far as their con speed build time is concerned, their tech cons probably shouldn't take 60 seconds to launch, and their capacity to put out teleports across the map very quickly only really benefits, bios sup and gunship spam. I don't see or hear about many cases where bios exp or tac is too powerful (although their ints, properly handled in evasively engaging targets, are a little absurd) nor do I see them win very many games, and 3-6 would be unnecessary nerfs to those two tech paths.
I would prefer to see this reigned in by increasing their fig size, removing their prox, and reducing the projectile velocity of skycap 1 to pre-DN levels (essentially a 50% reduction from what it is now) in order to reduce gunship's capacity to engage and destroy targets at long range.
As far as their con speed build time is concerned, their tech cons probably shouldn't take 60 seconds to launch, and their capacity to put out teleports across the map very quickly only really benefits, bios sup and gunship spam. I don't see or hear about many cases where bios exp or tac is too powerful (although their ints, properly handled in evasively engaging targets, are a little absurd) nor do I see them win very many games, and 3-6 would be unnecessary nerfs to those two tech paths.
I'd go for 3), and either 1) or 2), myself. The main annoyance of Bios, IMO, is that even if you roll into their home first thing and utterly destroy their economy, it won't really slow down their research that much as long as the comm was able to get in two miner loads for a techbase. And since no one goes Bios when treasures are off, there's no need to worry about the chances that they might be stuck unable to afford a miner - it's all about the cashboxes.
As for the figs, they're ridiculously good for starting ships. Bios figs have the most compact profile of any fig, probably the best maneuverability of any fig if you dump the heavy cloak, and of course they can @#(! prox to stop bombers in their tracks. As a result of their godlike figs, Bios has a really strong start for a comeback faction, and all those fig buffs contribute to the ridiculous cheese of Bios sup as well.
And while this is a bit radical, I personally think Bios should start with a Garrison rather than a Starbase, and have to upgrade it like everyone else to get at tp1 and gunships and all the other crap you only ever see with Bios; it's gotten to the point where basically no changes can be made to Starbase at all without talking about how they affect Bios, and it'd be nice to take that away. Other than practically-free adv scouts and GS spam, it's not like Bios uses any of that crap right away anyway.
As for the figs, they're ridiculously good for starting ships. Bios figs have the most compact profile of any fig, probably the best maneuverability of any fig if you dump the heavy cloak, and of course they can @#(! prox to stop bombers in their tracks. As a result of their godlike figs, Bios has a really strong start for a comeback faction, and all those fig buffs contribute to the ridiculous cheese of Bios sup as well.
And while this is a bit radical, I personally think Bios should start with a Garrison rather than a Starbase, and have to upgrade it like everyone else to get at tp1 and gunships and all the other crap you only ever see with Bios; it's gotten to the point where basically no changes can be made to Starbase at all without talking about how they affect Bios, and it'd be nice to take that away. Other than practically-free adv scouts and GS spam, it's not like Bios uses any of that crap right away anyway.
bios figs have most fuel and least mass, u figure that @#(! out
int as well
19 fuel? wthat the $#@!
butteflie sin $#@!ign out space
yhe only thing that is funy about it is when you htt vs bios hvy ints they cant ram your @#(! cuz they $#@!ign too light, dufck BIOS! $#@! FUEL TO MASS RATIOS
int as well
19 fuel? wthat the $#@!
butteflie sin $#@!ign out space
yhe only thing that is funy about it is when you htt vs bios hvy ints they cant ram your @#(! cuz they $#@!ign too light, dufck BIOS! $#@! FUEL TO MASS RATIOS
Last edited by Weedman on Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
QUOTE Once engaged 13 and a half Dreg Heavy Ints (at the same time) with an IC Int and emerged in a heavy int with 2 mini 3 and 1 mini dis and all foes destroyed
--- QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 1 2009, 01:53 PM) Definition of wtfpwn: Weedman in an int[/quote]
Lordus Weedicus II•Uses TS but can be difficult to understand due to the fact has never been sober•Expert int whore (without non-standard use of strafe buttons)•Gains skill increase when playing with Aarmstrong or former members of TRA•Expert miner D (ability to aim)•Can be trusted to run your economy•One of the half dozen or so game changers•Average Stacker
--- QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 1 2009, 01:53 PM) Definition of wtfpwn: Weedman in an int[/quote]
Lordus Weedicus II•Uses TS but can be difficult to understand due to the fact has never been sober•Expert int whore (without non-standard use of strafe buttons)•Gains skill increase when playing with Aarmstrong or former members of TRA•Expert miner D (ability to aim)•Can be trusted to run your economy•One of the half dozen or so game changers•Average Stacker
I find this to be an interesting suggestion. Other than adv. scouts, GS (arguably) and hvy cloak 2, is there really any Starbase tech that Bios does/needs to start research on right away? TP1 also comes to mind, but making them buy starbase first sounds like a nice small cost/time nerf to their Sup. Especially since most Sup tech is already half price and Bios forgoes the Starbase upgrade cost on top of that.Jimen wrote:QUOTE (Jimen @ Jun 19 2010, 10:57 AM) Bios should start with a Garrison rather than a Starbase
We have some options with this. Its definitely possible to remove Bios starting with Starbase and still let them start research on adv. scouts (or other tech if absolutely necessary) at the start of the game. On the other hand, aside from the new additional cost and time of upgrading (and the base would be cheaper to buy/replace) if we let Bios research what they need out of Starbase at the start, we might not end up nerfing them at all. Which could be a good or a bad thing.
Last edited by Xeretov on Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gunships are very rarely used by any faction other than Bios, so nerfing gunships in general makes little sense. If anything, non-Bios gunships need a mild perk of some sort, so that maybe people would actually want to use them once in a rare while. Nerfing Bios gunships specifically would also just ensure that gunships are practically never seen at all, since, again, they're the only faction that frequently uses them. Less variety in gameplay = bad. It's nice to see gunships once in a while. And a well-organized run by an equal number of players can usually take them out, so they aren't really a game-breaking thing.
Increasing the size of the Bios fighter, on the other hand, seems like a small change that might nonetheless make enough of a difference by weakening Bios' early game. Perhaps the best thing would be to start with this fairly small, "safe" change, and then see if it's enough, nerfing Bios further only if they prove to still be overpowered.
There's no real justification for the fighters to have prox either but... prox fighters are just a lot of fun.
It would be nice not to take them away unless absolutely necessary. Increasing the size of the fig might nerf it enough that letting it keep the prox wouldn't be too bad, anyway.
Reducing yield and mining speed also seems like a good idea for a nerf. It doesn't impact any of the Bios' really unique, fun attributes the way some other nerfs (e.g. increased build time, increased mass) would, but might make a big difference by forcing Bios to mine more sectors and generally take more effort to run their economy.
Reducing paydays might also make sense, since there's really no reason a faction should be successful without having to run a good economy, but entirely removing them seems very extreme.
Maybe start with embiggenning the fighters, and then move on to the economy nerfs if that turns out not to be enough?
To me the fast con build time seems like a unique and interesting Bios trait that should be left alone if at all possible. Some factions have quick research time; Bios have quick build time and slow research. It's a nice, unique faction trait, and removing it would make them a little more boring. Plus, Bios might be able to get their second teleport out very quickly, but they pretty much have to build their first tele at home, while other factions might make do with a carrier.
Their lighter ships are also something unique that it would really be a shame to remove. It makes sense to have low-mass ships to help compensate for the heavy cloak; it may become a big advantage with cloak removed but, again, it's one of those unique faction traits that it seems would make the game more boring and same-ey if it were removed. It's just one of the advantages that Bios should have to make them an interesting faction to play; it should be balanced by giving them other weaknesses, not by taking this strength away.
So changes (5) and (6) seem like they'd be better as absolute last resorts -- if somehow increasing fighter size, and then nerfing the economy, still proves not to be enough (doesn't seem very likely
), then maybe these would be necessary. But it'd be better to start off with changes that nerf the Bios without taking away the things that really make them unique.
Increasing the size of the Bios fighter, on the other hand, seems like a small change that might nonetheless make enough of a difference by weakening Bios' early game. Perhaps the best thing would be to start with this fairly small, "safe" change, and then see if it's enough, nerfing Bios further only if they prove to still be overpowered.
There's no real justification for the fighters to have prox either but... prox fighters are just a lot of fun.
It would be nice not to take them away unless absolutely necessary. Increasing the size of the fig might nerf it enough that letting it keep the prox wouldn't be too bad, anyway.Reducing yield and mining speed also seems like a good idea for a nerf. It doesn't impact any of the Bios' really unique, fun attributes the way some other nerfs (e.g. increased build time, increased mass) would, but might make a big difference by forcing Bios to mine more sectors and generally take more effort to run their economy.
Reducing paydays might also make sense, since there's really no reason a faction should be successful without having to run a good economy, but entirely removing them seems very extreme.
Maybe start with embiggenning the fighters, and then move on to the economy nerfs if that turns out not to be enough?
To me the fast con build time seems like a unique and interesting Bios trait that should be left alone if at all possible. Some factions have quick research time; Bios have quick build time and slow research. It's a nice, unique faction trait, and removing it would make them a little more boring. Plus, Bios might be able to get their second teleport out very quickly, but they pretty much have to build their first tele at home, while other factions might make do with a carrier.
Their lighter ships are also something unique that it would really be a shame to remove. It makes sense to have low-mass ships to help compensate for the heavy cloak; it may become a big advantage with cloak removed but, again, it's one of those unique faction traits that it seems would make the game more boring and same-ey if it were removed. It's just one of the advantages that Bios should have to make them an interesting faction to play; it should be balanced by giving them other weaknesses, not by taking this strength away.
So changes (5) and (6) seem like they'd be better as absolute last resorts -- if somehow increasing fighter size, and then nerfing the economy, still proves not to be enough (doesn't seem very likely
), then maybe these would be necessary. But it'd be better to start off with changes that nerf the Bios without taking away the things that really make them unique.
Last edited by Makida on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What if you got rid of prox for figs but kept minepack which is much in shorter duration and size? Bios already get minepack for free with a sup, something no other faction gets.madpeople wrote:QUOTE (madpeople @ Jun 19 2010, 12:43 PM) Don't take the mines!
But I don't think removing prox from figs is going to weaken Bios sup much. It might mean a few more successful early bomb runs, but early bombing usually leads to a loss anyway for most teams that chose to do it. Its Bios' ability to build a tech base and have 0 miners, 0 sectors outside their home and still win that is the problem. Nerfing their payday would help but it would not eliminate the problem so long as treasures are on. And lets face it, treasures are on 95% of the time so Bios can just get cash boxes to replace the paydays.
The best solution is to remove the free starbase. It addresses all the major Bios problems in one fell swoop. It would delay gunships, hvy scouts and tp2 for a further 10 minutes. Making a bios team survive for 10 more minutes isn't that big of a nerf but its a good start to solving the problem. You don't even need to make Bios starbase cost much. 5k would probably be fine even. All that matters is tp2 would take 30 minutes instead of 20. I would try that first and then if bios sup is still winning 70% of the time (or whatever the latest % is) look to the other ideas.
Last edited by _SRM_Nuke on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MrChaos to Sharpfish wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos to Sharpfish @ Oct 2 2011, 08:55 AM) Damn there went my hope you died in a couch fire.
Won't people simply stop buying Starbase then? Or maybe upgrade it only if they go sup, for the hvy scouts and tp1, and then only after they get the supremacy itself? Then we won't see gunships at all. Which would suck, since no other faction ever uses them as it is. The fact that they're available early is the only reason Bios bothers with them at all.
I dunno. Having all their bases start advanced is, again, a primary characteristic of the Bios, to go along with their slow research time. Having all their bases start advanced EXCEPT for the garrison seems a bit of a messy solution. And how much of a solution is it, anyway? It only "delays" them for 10 minutes if you assume that commanders will still buy the starbase upgrade first thing; it's more likely they'll go for a tech first. As for forcing Bios to spend additional money on the upgrade -- if they choose to get it -- wouldn't this be equivalent to nerfing their paydays or otherwise nerfing the economy (which is apparantelly not a nerf at all because of cashboxes or some such)?
(Which I don't get. Cashboxes fully make up for a nerfed/removed payday? Really? I'm sure they make things easier, but it's not like it wouldn't still be a nerf.)
Instead, start with a smaller, less ambitious nerf -- like increasing fig size -- and then see how that works, and what else might be needed.
I dunno. Having all their bases start advanced is, again, a primary characteristic of the Bios, to go along with their slow research time. Having all their bases start advanced EXCEPT for the garrison seems a bit of a messy solution. And how much of a solution is it, anyway? It only "delays" them for 10 minutes if you assume that commanders will still buy the starbase upgrade first thing; it's more likely they'll go for a tech first. As for forcing Bios to spend additional money on the upgrade -- if they choose to get it -- wouldn't this be equivalent to nerfing their paydays or otherwise nerfing the economy (which is apparantelly not a nerf at all because of cashboxes or some such)?
(Which I don't get. Cashboxes fully make up for a nerfed/removed payday? Really? I'm sure they make things easier, but it's not like it wouldn't still be a nerf.)
Instead, start with a smaller, less ambitious nerf -- like increasing fig size -- and then see how that works, and what else might be needed.