Heavy Cloak...
TT's mounting emp is a good idea. Galv not so much because then you would need a whole other adv tech path to use basic exp tech
I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.
My apologies.
I would say in this case keep TTs as they are or perk slightly in some other way, and then have the split options of HTT (High mass, hull+sig) and LTT (which would be the TT of your idea)Tigereye wrote:QUOTE (Tigereye @ Mar 13 2010, 06:24 PM) Everyone take a deep breath
Breathe
Breathe......
Breathe...........
There.
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion about HTTs (without the emotional epeen measuring)
--TE
(PS: if anyone cares about my lowly opinion, giving Heavy Cloak to HTTs is silly. I like Mastametz's suggestions a few pages ago. Mass changes? Separate TT and HTT so they're researched independently - one highmass/highsig, the other lowmass/lowsig. HTT gets multi-EMP misisles, TT gets 1.)
Then again, that is far too outlandish to be put in...
So I've finally had the time to read this entire thread, and frankly I find myself wondering why we bother asking you people about anything. There seems to be a lot of bickering and not a lot of useful suggestions. Even most of the arguments against are flimsy. I can't be bothered to go back and try and find specific quotes so I'm just going to bring some points up here as I think of them.
1) Bickering. I'm going to prune this thread soon and either move the crap posts elsewhere or just delete them. Probably move since Jimen has brought the lulz. But if your suggestion gets deleted because you were trolling / taking trollbait in the same post then, well, it sucks to be you.
2) Uniqueness. Bios HTTs get hvy cloak. Bios HTTs also have a higher chance of success because of it; they can actually get into a sector to set up without putting the entire enemy team on defense. Note that this is very similar to how Sup and Tac work right now. Other factions getting hvy cloak is not going to reduce Bios' uniqueness any more than other factions getting to load prox on their scout. I never want to read this argument again because its just ridiculous.
3) Coordination. Giving hvy cloak to HTTs is not going to reduce the amount of coordination required by very much. That HTT still has to survive to reach the green door. IF we find that HTTs are getting too close to green doors before the cloak drops then we can always adjust HTT energy so it doesn't last as long. The amount of cloak time up to the base is very adjustable yet seems to be the biggest problem most of you have with the concept. I don't recall reading anything about getting into the sector to set up in the first place. See point #2.
4) Nerfing Sup instead. Maybe we should. Maybe we shouldn't. Its something to consider for the future and if we do and find HTT is overpowered in comparison at that point, then we can look at the balance again accordingly. But right now it is the worst endgame of the three techpaths and thats why we're looking at new options. Besides, if we removed FBs (or some similar suggestion) we'd have to look at a LOT of things to balance the current endgame back out, and thats beyond the scope of this and the next couple releases due to OH coming out. Work with what we have for the moment.
5) TTs and EMP. Yes we know TTs are useless. Changes are in the pipes for EMP and I, personally, am working to make it useful to mount for TT runs as well. But thats not planned for this CC release so don't get your panties in a bunch yet. TTs will be addressed or possibly removed sooner or later depending on what we can figure out for new options. Save those suggestions for later.
6) Ramming. Not all HTTs have an easy to reach sweet spot, Rix in particular is a real pain. If you are going to argue that they don't need hvy cloak because they can be rammed then please shut up and go make us new models for the problem factions instead. Otherwise I am going to continue assuming that HTT ramming is too finicky to rely upon for balance decisions.
7) Belters HTTs. This ties in with #6. Honestly if you see somebody boosting towards your green door then its time to be suspicious. But it Belters turns out to be overpowered, guess what? We can address Belters individually. It'd be very simple to reduce their max speed or give their HTT an energy penalty so it gets the same distance out of its hvy cloak with ramming as other factions do without. Although if Belters HTTs were even better than they are now it might be seen more in games. Hell, people might actually learn how to fly their ints at that point.
8) Vir's assault shield idea. Its....interesting. Encourages force-capping more than stealth but just seems like a pain to try and balance. I'm noting it here because its well thought out (unlike many posts here) and has some merit. I don't expect to be putting this into CC soon but depending on what we do change and how it works out, this might be an interesting feature for the future.
9) Giving TT's EMP missile. See #5, we'll look at this suggestion when we start working on TTs in particular. Again, if we need to change HTT balance a bit because of TT changes then we'll deal with it then.
10) Pulse probes. Not going into this right now, but ideally hvy cloak wouldn't tip the other team off that you have an HTT in the sector at all to start pulsing, until its too late. Depends on coordination. One note though, I find it hilarious to read this forum and see some people complaining about unstoppable win-button endgame and then go read about PPs making it too easy to stop said endgame tech.
11) Base pushing. This is still an option for endgame if the exp team wants to take it. At that point they don't need to spend the cash on HTTs & hvy cloak. They spend that money on bases and mini3 instead. See how easy that was? Its also worth noting how expensive base pushing is against sup because of having to use large bases. Not that brand-new ops live long against SBs either.
12) Cheesy endgame tech in general. Prove to me that all games are able to end before the 2 hour mark without having to use it at all and I'll consider your suggestions to nerf the crap out of everything that does end said games. Until then I'm fine with endgame tech being cheesy enough to actually end games. See #4. And remember this is CC not squadgame core, because if everyone had that kind of coordination then we'd have to approach balance differently.
More if I think of them.
1) Bickering. I'm going to prune this thread soon and either move the crap posts elsewhere or just delete them. Probably move since Jimen has brought the lulz. But if your suggestion gets deleted because you were trolling / taking trollbait in the same post then, well, it sucks to be you.
2) Uniqueness. Bios HTTs get hvy cloak. Bios HTTs also have a higher chance of success because of it; they can actually get into a sector to set up without putting the entire enemy team on defense. Note that this is very similar to how Sup and Tac work right now. Other factions getting hvy cloak is not going to reduce Bios' uniqueness any more than other factions getting to load prox on their scout. I never want to read this argument again because its just ridiculous.
3) Coordination. Giving hvy cloak to HTTs is not going to reduce the amount of coordination required by very much. That HTT still has to survive to reach the green door. IF we find that HTTs are getting too close to green doors before the cloak drops then we can always adjust HTT energy so it doesn't last as long. The amount of cloak time up to the base is very adjustable yet seems to be the biggest problem most of you have with the concept. I don't recall reading anything about getting into the sector to set up in the first place. See point #2.
4) Nerfing Sup instead. Maybe we should. Maybe we shouldn't. Its something to consider for the future and if we do and find HTT is overpowered in comparison at that point, then we can look at the balance again accordingly. But right now it is the worst endgame of the three techpaths and thats why we're looking at new options. Besides, if we removed FBs (or some similar suggestion) we'd have to look at a LOT of things to balance the current endgame back out, and thats beyond the scope of this and the next couple releases due to OH coming out. Work with what we have for the moment.
5) TTs and EMP. Yes we know TTs are useless. Changes are in the pipes for EMP and I, personally, am working to make it useful to mount for TT runs as well. But thats not planned for this CC release so don't get your panties in a bunch yet. TTs will be addressed or possibly removed sooner or later depending on what we can figure out for new options. Save those suggestions for later.
6) Ramming. Not all HTTs have an easy to reach sweet spot, Rix in particular is a real pain. If you are going to argue that they don't need hvy cloak because they can be rammed then please shut up and go make us new models for the problem factions instead. Otherwise I am going to continue assuming that HTT ramming is too finicky to rely upon for balance decisions.
7) Belters HTTs. This ties in with #6. Honestly if you see somebody boosting towards your green door then its time to be suspicious. But it Belters turns out to be overpowered, guess what? We can address Belters individually. It'd be very simple to reduce their max speed or give their HTT an energy penalty so it gets the same distance out of its hvy cloak with ramming as other factions do without. Although if Belters HTTs were even better than they are now it might be seen more in games. Hell, people might actually learn how to fly their ints at that point.
8) Vir's assault shield idea. Its....interesting. Encourages force-capping more than stealth but just seems like a pain to try and balance. I'm noting it here because its well thought out (unlike many posts here) and has some merit. I don't expect to be putting this into CC soon but depending on what we do change and how it works out, this might be an interesting feature for the future.
9) Giving TT's EMP missile. See #5, we'll look at this suggestion when we start working on TTs in particular. Again, if we need to change HTT balance a bit because of TT changes then we'll deal with it then.
10) Pulse probes. Not going into this right now, but ideally hvy cloak wouldn't tip the other team off that you have an HTT in the sector at all to start pulsing, until its too late. Depends on coordination. One note though, I find it hilarious to read this forum and see some people complaining about unstoppable win-button endgame and then go read about PPs making it too easy to stop said endgame tech.
11) Base pushing. This is still an option for endgame if the exp team wants to take it. At that point they don't need to spend the cash on HTTs & hvy cloak. They spend that money on bases and mini3 instead. See how easy that was? Its also worth noting how expensive base pushing is against sup because of having to use large bases. Not that brand-new ops live long against SBs either.
12) Cheesy endgame tech in general. Prove to me that all games are able to end before the 2 hour mark without having to use it at all and I'll consider your suggestions to nerf the crap out of everything that does end said games. Until then I'm fine with endgame tech being cheesy enough to actually end games. See #4. And remember this is CC not squadgame core, because if everyone had that kind of coordination then we'd have to approach balance differently.
More if I think of them.
13) Slight speed (TF/Rix) or signature perk (IC) for those few HTT's that appear to be weak in pug's atm.
Because let me summarize the other HTT's:
Bios - Awesome and super effective even with minimal escort due to HC2GT AP HTT - Almost unstoppable since its impossible to ram off path (Even with Mini3 HvyInts) especially if escorted properDreg HTT - Easy to miss hitbox for rammers, stealthy and pretty fastBelters - HvyInt Nans that ram you beyond 150mpsGiga HTT - Great hitbox to ram and very fast as well
The three major reasons I observered for failed HTT attempts in pugs:
- HTT's were too slow and got rammed of path in the last second by a good vet in the enemy team
- HTT's were spotted too early because the pilots took badly prepared routes (like straight from aleph to aleph)
- HTT's that tried to be hero's by capping stuff without proper escort, coordination or distraction favouring their attempt
Now with the removal of HvyBooster Exp is slaughtering Sup in almost every game (aside from well executed FigBomber runs who remain rather hard to stop without a camping HvyInt). Handing AssltShields or HvyCloak to HTT's seems as a too radical step to me and is simply going to turn Allegiance once more into Exp only.
Because let me summarize the other HTT's:
Bios - Awesome and super effective even with minimal escort due to HC2GT AP HTT - Almost unstoppable since its impossible to ram off path (Even with Mini3 HvyInts) especially if escorted properDreg HTT - Easy to miss hitbox for rammers, stealthy and pretty fastBelters - HvyInt Nans that ram you beyond 150mpsGiga HTT - Great hitbox to ram and very fast as well
The three major reasons I observered for failed HTT attempts in pugs:
- HTT's were too slow and got rammed of path in the last second by a good vet in the enemy team
- HTT's were spotted too early because the pilots took badly prepared routes (like straight from aleph to aleph)
- HTT's that tried to be hero's by capping stuff without proper escort, coordination or distraction favouring their attempt
Now with the removal of HvyBooster Exp is slaughtering Sup in almost every game (aside from well executed FigBomber runs who remain rather hard to stop without a camping HvyInt). Handing AssltShields or HvyCloak to HTT's seems as a too radical step to me and is simply going to turn Allegiance once more into Exp only.
"WyldKarde@RT: It's like the Picard Manouver, but with more hair."
I think the main problem with the Exp techpath is because HTT's suck when compared to figbees which is perfectly understandable when you consider TP2 Figbees are quite expensive to get when compared to HTT's, the problem is exp doesnt have any expensive cheese tech when they are rich.
I would propose instead of adding Heavy Cloak to HTT's that an exp team can spend a further 15k or something and get Advanced TT's which are faster/lower sig/more hp and mass (GT can have AP HTT's and AP ATT's), or instead of making them faster give them NG missiles and a longer range EMP Missile so they can cap a base from like 500m away by firing the NG Missile at it.
I would propose instead of adding Heavy Cloak to HTT's that an exp team can spend a further 15k or something and get Advanced TT's which are faster/lower sig/more hp and mass (GT can have AP HTT's and AP ATT's), or instead of making them faster give them NG missiles and a longer range EMP Missile so they can cap a base from like 500m away by firing the NG Missile at it.
The problem with this, is that we already have a useless money sink (TTs) on the path to HTTs. You're proposing that we make HTTs into an additional, identical money sink on the way to a useful ship. I'd rather make HTTs into that useful ship and adjust the cost of them if necessary.HSharp wrote:QUOTE (HSharp @ Mar 15 2010, 11:49 AM) spend a further 15k or something and get Advanced TT's which are faster/lower sig/more hp and mass
First of all I apologize for getting into confrontations a few days back, I was taking real life out on the allegiance forums.
Just a few other options:
1) Regular TT's become HTT's, move EMP missile to regular Exp (although regular TT would be a weaker ship still).
2) HTT have the option of mounting a tweaked version of the NG missile.
For #2, you deal with the problem of having to hit a stationary target (green door) by allowing them to shoot at any part of the base, but you can still require that htt to essentially "touch" the base by making the range on the NG missile short. The reason it would need tweaking is to make sure the HTT had time to switch to the NG missile after getting the shields down.
One major issue (code change) I could see is that this would also allow HTTs to cap other non-dockable bases. Now that I think about it, that might be a deal breaker...
Just a few other options:
1) Regular TT's become HTT's, move EMP missile to regular Exp (although regular TT would be a weaker ship still).
2) HTT have the option of mounting a tweaked version of the NG missile.
For #2, you deal with the problem of having to hit a stationary target (green door) by allowing them to shoot at any part of the base, but you can still require that htt to essentially "touch" the base by making the range on the NG missile short. The reason it would need tweaking is to make sure the HTT had time to switch to the NG missile after getting the shields down.
One major issue (code change) I could see is that this would also allow HTTs to cap other non-dockable bases. Now that I think about it, that might be a deal breaker...
-Paradigm2
This is the exact reason I proposed moving heavy cloak into starbase. Its an extra 10K pricetag without being a complete money sink, because the exp team can go ahead and buy adv. scouts (for the extra sig & hull) while they're at it.HSharp wrote:QUOTE (HSharp @ Mar 15 2010, 12:59 PM) You are going to have to make them more expensive then, I would easily pay 10k more to have the option of mounting heavy cloak on my HTTs (plus another 5k to actually buy heavy cloak).
A couple more issues that have been raised or thought of:
1) TF and Rix HTT weapons using energy. This is not an issue because we can easily change TF's weapon to use ammo and create a similar, Rix HTT only weapon that uses ammo as well. Or adjust their HTTs individually to have the extra energy they need, though that feels like more of an ugly kludge.
2) Bios having and giving exp teams free hvy cloak. I'm honestly not sure how big of a deal this is going to be, but similar to the above we can easily make a Bios-only version of hvy cloak that gets upgraded if they buy hvy cloak 2, but does not give other factions hvy cloak when picked up. Whether the Bios-only version would be mountable on their HTTs or not is up for debate.
Edit: I've also gotten around to pruning this thread. 63 posts were removed.
Last edited by Xeretov on Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.