Capships are a bit too ueber?

[Grim_Reaper_4u]

Eh Pook, after reading your PCII description I checked TEK and it confirmed my suspicions :

CAPSHIPS ARE TOO STRONG ON PCII !!!

A DN IC Battleship has about the same hitpoints as PCII IC MF (around 12.700) ---> MF rushes by IC are simply unstoppable (yeah yeah i know: kill their miners or bomb the sy before a MF pops out but still )

If you rush MF correctly the most you can expect your opponent to have is emp1,mini2 ints or dis2 enh figs with dumb2, or sf with lrm2/killer 1, maybe throw in a bomber to try to ab the MF and put AC2 to work. All of these defensive measures will be hard pressed to stop a 12.700 hitpoint capship with 3 turrets (if you forget about home d that means you still have a minimum of 6 ints to kill any camping bombers)

I pulled this trick vs RT when we played 2 squad games on PCII and they couldn't even dent the MF (granted them being Giga didn't really help them ) If i hadn't bought large2 and sky2 i think MF would have been up around 12 minutes (and i also bought 4 enh miners, TP,Op).

Doubling hitpoints without taking IC MF rushes into account is not a good idea IMHO

I've only tried MF rushing on PCII once but my gut tells me it is simply unstoppable (unless you bomb rush and get lucky or you manage to kill IC enh miners with 8 peeps on miner d both of which options are much harder to pull off than a MF rush).

I'd like to see caps boosted but i doubt this is the right way

[Pook]

Well,

I was in a "post-squadgame" the other day with the guys from ACE against a team of mostly PK.

The MF made it from the aleph to kill the base (a distance of around 3K) just barely. I was nanning the MF, and it was being eaten alive by the ints... (This was not a rush but instead was near the end) Keep in mind that ints have the worst damage bonus against a MF... Miniguns do HALF Damage to both heavy sheilds and hull and EMP cannons do only normal damage to shields. (No hull damage, of course)

Other techpaths are much better equipped against caps. Utilitity cannons got a HUGE boost against large shields to help with capship defense. In MS 1.25 they did .75 damage vs large shield, in PCII they have a 3x damage bonus. Disruptors do 4x normal damage to large hulls and 3x normal damage to large shield.

In any case , what I saw in game looked about right. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's pretty much where I think my opinion of a capship should be. Let's face it, they're expensive and LOUD and if you get surprised by one you're doing something wrong.

If it's the rush that really is a problem, the simple solution is to slow them down. I'd suggest either requiring starbase to build the SY, or requiring a techbase. Right now, I haven't seen the "unstoppableness"... but if there's a general consensus of folks that ask for the IC SY rush to be slowed down I'll certainly take care of it. (Yes, it's core design by committee... )

The only way to get a real feel for it is to probably set up a test. Get one side with intermediate tech, and the other side gets a base MF, and see if they can stop it. Do a couple of runs with each tech path. SUP is best, EXP is worst is my gut feeling.

[Vlymoxyd]

I haven't played PC2 much, but I think that the problem might be fixed if MF didn't have heavy cloak(Do they on PC2?).

A camp with mines should do pretty good vs caps. Actually, exp get emp missiles, which can bring the shields of a cap down faster than galvs.

[Pook]

Yes, MF on PCII have heavy cloak. (inherited from MS 1.25)

You should know about the enemy MF before it ever launches, by spotting their Shipyard. There are, in my mind, 3 scenarios:

- Total surprise.
The enemy MF pops through your aleph while you're busy following a miner around or probing elsewhere. You're screwed.

- Ship Spotted.
If you never knew the enemy had a SY but you spot the MF when it launches, then you are most likely in a "do the best I can with what I've got" situation as the commander most likely won't have time or money to get you any anti-cap weaponry.

- SY Spotted.
You saw the SY con or the SY build. You've got plenty of time before the MF pops out and the commander can get you any number of things to aid in defense. In this situation you should fair pretty well.

[Pook]

Also, Grim -

When was this that you had these squad games? I know that IC's economy was in flux for while, while the miners didn't rip their penalties had been removed, etc. As of build 19 I haven't heard any complaints regarding economy anymore.

[MadAccountant]

This was on Sunday Pook so whatever core is up on PCII Squad server...likely 1.19. They did a pure old fashioned sy rush...read the GB/RT game recap.

[Pook]

Random thoughts:

- Looking at the game, only 12 per side - the bomber + nans (no gunners) that's a pretty low number to stop a capship.

- In addition, by the recap it says "Blew the garrison, game over". So RT had no tech base? You can't expect to stop a missile frigate with giga scouts and patties. The other side built a tech base (SY) it wouldn't be worth much if basic garrison tech could stop it.... ESPECIALLY giga basic garrison tech.

- Total game was 19 minutes... that's not exactly a rush. In any case, given the recap which was "no real confrontation until the MF appeared", I'd say RT could have had AT LEAST enh figs in time to meet the MF - especially on those resource settings. It sounds like their miners were able to go unharassed, etc... my gut says that if they had tried they could have had adv tech up, even.

My opinion - What it sounds like happened is that RT focused on expansion while GB went for the MF rush. The problem here isn't the MF, the problem is that RT wasn't prepared for it. Badger made a similar mistake last night. He kept building ops and teles, we had no tech base, we got crushed.

I'll bet you that if GB had foregone the SY and for about the same cost had simply upped to Starbase and got hvy scouts + hvy bombers they could have done it even faster and still beat basic giga garrison tech.

Let me put it this way:

GB spent 40,000 on SY + MF + LG2 + SKY2.

For less than that 40,000 Giga could have had:
Sup + Enh Figs + Gat 2 + Dis 2 + Dumb 2 + Small 2 --OR-- Adv Sup + Adv Figs + Whatever tech they found.

IC's miners have 75% capacity, and IC has a 75% payday.
Giga's miners are 125% capacity, Giga has a 125% payday, and Giga gets Enh Miners FOR FREE.

At this point, I'm going to say this had very little to do with the MF and very much to do with GB catching RT with it's pants down.

Dishes coming out dirty? Maybe it's your dishwasher!!

[Grim_Reaper_4u]

You are right of course, this was the easiest opposition an IC MF could wish. However if dis/util etc. dmg vs caps is still the same as in 1.25 (which it should be else your changelist which you posted isn't complete ) then my gut tells me that not even enh figs with dis2 could have stopped that MF ( I don't think it's realistic to assume a fully upped sup at say 14-15 minutes for giga, noone rushes galvs as giga, they usually expand quite a bit before they up the Sup.
It also means they have around a 3 minute timeframe from the time they spot my SY building before my MF rolls out the door. I doubt they can buy a Sup, plant it, adv it and buy the necessary tech to kill the MF in 3 minutes

Essentially if you see your enemy go Exp and you rush a MF as IC I think you got it in the bag, if they are Tac I think you got it too (unless something really weird happened to Tac since last i played 1.25 , the only chance they have is if they happen to rush Sup (and when do you see anyone rushing galvs vs IC? )and forego all expansion (which is atypical of Giga comms).

Anyone up for a test? I like high hitpoint caps but like you say it might be wise to slow IC rushes down a bit (BTW I had an exp building the moment my MF rolled out the door so essentially even a tech prereq would probably still allow you to get an MF out at say 16 minutes if you like it bare without large2/sky2 and forego the enh miners).

[Pook]

Bottom line is in smaller games it's going to be tough to stop them... but then again, that's the norm. Caps in small games are cheese: Allegiance Rule #27.

I do think that enh figs with gat2 / dis2 / dumb2 etc could take down the MF. It partly depends on how good the gunners on the MF are.

To answer your question about tac, I quoted an earlier post:

QUOTE (Pook @ Jul 12 2006, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Other techpaths are much better equipped against caps. Utilitity cannons got a HUGE boost against large shields to help with capship defense. In MS 1.25 they did .75 damage vs large shield, in PCII they have a 3x damage bonus. Disruptors do 4x normal damage to large hulls and 3x normal damage to large shield.

So yes, Util cannons do a crapload of damage against large shield now.

Another thing:

If you were able to buy all the stuff you did (SY, MF, Upgrades, OP, Tele, Enh Miners, Exp) on IC's econ then there's ZERO reason that Giga shouldn't have had a huge amount of cash in a game where it sounds like their miners went unmolested. For them to have no techbase at the 19 minute mark is nothing short of commander error.

[Abomination]

It was commander error. At this point, I don't even remember what was runnning through my mind. I think I was trying to make sure GB's garr and sy died before our garr or something... but some miscommunication or whatnot didn't let that happen. (thankfully Dream gave me my tp1 game in the next game )

We were rich.

On a related note, I was planning on SY rush myself, or some kind of SY game, as IC, but since I didn't have time to figure out how to use ICE and research PCII, I didn't touch SY.

I'll run some numbers later, and see if gunships/enhfigs/sfs/ints can take down an IC missle frigate. I doubt that gunships w/o nans, sfs, and ints stand a chance, in a 10v10(mebbe even a 15v15).