Shipyard & CC_07

[zombywoof]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Aug 31 2009, 05:44 PM) I'm reading your posts but you seem to be missing my point. You had an earlier idea that SY could get free gunship clones, that I can agree with a bit more but free corvs are a lot different.

The main difference though is the shields, GS uses med shields (300hp) Corv uses large shields (3000hp) so it takes 10x longer to kill a corv when compared with a gs thus making it unfeasible for a single pilot to take out a corv, even 3 figs will have a lot of trouble lowering the corv to half shields if there is 1 turret on the corv and now if you have corvs free they can spam and overpower easily even if they all had 1hp hull they would be able to roll through sectors with thier fat shields.

You can't change the shields though because shields are not individual to a ship, a battleship and a freighter both use the same shield so being able to spam corvs would seriously overpower SY, perhaps corvs are too expensive per ship now but making them free would be far too overpowered.

And rather than assuming I had thought of this and figured that if we were to make the ships free we would apply appropriate nerfs you assumed that I meant corvettes as they stand in CC06 ought to be free.

I do know how cores work and understand the rudimentary basics of what can and cannot be changed.

[notjarvis]

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Aug 31 2009, 11:51 PM) Thank you. These people are just sort of blanket replying my posts without reading, I hope they actually start reading yours at least.

FYI phoenix1 I was responded directly to what you said in the quoted post - and I stand by the fact if 1 Fig cannot take out a free corv - they are almost by definition Cheesetech
(I did read it)

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Aug 31 2009, 11:43 PM) I'll repeat myself, but the power of capital ships should come more from the turret than the armor in order to force people to turret them.

I agree with this totally

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Sep 1 2009, 01:22 AM) A single pilot should have no trouble killing a vette 1 vs 1 if the vette cannot turn fast enough to hit smaller moving crafts or just has no front guns. Also, it has been pointed out several times that cheaper caps would get weaker in order to get balanced. Capital ships should suck without gunners

This I also agree with - the manouverability of a fig should allow it to take out a lumbering cap if it has no turrents.....

[HSharp]

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Sep 1 2009, 02:22 AM) Another thing I suggested some time ago was to create an extra heavy shield class in to be able to balance 2 gunner ships along with 4 gunner ones.

A single pilot should have no trouble killing a vette 1 vs 1 if the vette cannot turn fast enough to hit smaller moving crafts or just has no front guns. Also, it has been pointed out several times that cheaper caps would get weaker in order to get balanced. Capital ships should suck without gunners

Another shield for smaller caps might solve that problem, not a new class but just a heavy shield that has less hp.

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Sep 1 2009, 02:22 AM) As for large shield having 10x more hp, don't forget a few things:
Dis has a 3x damage modifier on hvy armor and large shields. Dis1 will do 38.4 damage per second against large shield or heavy armor.
gat 1 with a 0.75 mod on med armor and 0.5 on med shield will do 24 dps on med armor and 18 dps on med shield.

Ints would have more trouble than figs, but it's possible to lower caps shields and armor and lower the mod dis has on capital ships if it's needed.

I don't get this part, you are arguing dis vs heavy class and shields with gat on med armour and med shields? The only differences between large shields and med shields is that some weapons do different damage (aleph res, quickfire DM class missiles, lancers and all of these less dmg on large then on med) and large shields regenerate much more quickly. So it still takes >10x longer to kill largeshield then med shield regardless of what weapon you are using.

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Sep 1 2009, 02:22 AM) Capital ships are slow, have a high sig and have limited launch points. They also cost more to research than standard tech(These are things I'd like to keep). They should be pretty though to kill even with equal number of pilots. That said, if their power mostly comes from long range turrets, camping then becomes a pretty good counter vs capital ships.

Camping has always been the best counter vs capships, which is why being able to rip in capships is usually the main route to take in finishing games.

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Sep 1 2009, 02:22 AM) Last edit: You can't say that free corvettes would be overpowered considering that a corvette nerf "is planned" if this is accepted. Corvettes could be overnerfed and suck or not nerfed enough and be overpowered, but there's no way to know for sure untill we know what said nerf would be. Spamming 20 turretless capital ship should be retarded and I have no doubt that it will be no matter what happens with SY.

A corvette nerfed may be planned but unless we know how the nerf will pan out then suggesting free capships is silly, as you have stated if capships should be pretty tough to kill even with equal pilots then free capships will be overpowering, it doesn't matter that they are slow so you can camp for them if you have free huge hp things able to be spammed around everywhere where it requires a camp or way more pilots to kill then a team can be overpowered from all sides and be constantly be put on the defence. Unless your going to nerf large shields (which will hurt a lot of other caps) or get a new shield for corvs free corvs WILL be overpowered

[Vlymoxyd]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Sep 1 2009, 04:38 AM) A corvette nerfed may be planned but unless we know how the nerf will pan out then suggesting free capships is silly,

Actually, unless YOU know what the nerf will be, you cannot say wether or not free corvettes would be overpowered. A nerf on free corvettes would obviously be more important than a nerf on cheaper corvettes. The choice of leaving the cost of corvette alone, making them cheaper or free comes BEFORE the choice of the nerf. If the nerf gave corvettes small shields, removed their skycaps and gave them only 100 hp, they would completely suck.


Also, a talk about HP is meaningless without a talk on damage modifiers. AB1 does 400 damage while some bases have more than 30k HP. Bombers wouldn't be able to kill bases without damage mods.

[HSharp]

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Sep 1 2009, 03:03 PM) Also, a talk about HP is meaningless without a talk on damage modifiers. AB1 does 400 damage while some bases have more than 30k HP. Bombers wouldn't be able to kill bases without damage mods.

Med shield 1 has 300hp, Large Shield 1 has 3000hp, both have same damage modifiers except for few weapons which do less damage on large shield, so unless the nerf to corvettes is actually going to be a nerf to large shields (thus affecting all caps) you could give corv's 10 hull hp and they will still be overpowered as a free ship.

Perhaps you should suggest how corvettes are going to be nerfed so I can understand your point.

I do agree that capships should be cheaper but I do not think they should be free.

[Adept]

QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Aug 31 2009, 08:14 PM) Well, I won't discuss it too long because it'd be quite a big non-SY change, but what about:

-Remove Hvy Scout
-Create a Scout/GS hybrid in Starbase without adv scout as a prerequist (free or 1 credit to use)
- Move GS to SY
-Allow SY techs to use GS for free without any research(Using a GS would be free)
- Make a Corvette research(Lower corvette price to around $500)

I designed a ship like that, the scout/GS hybrid with Dorjan long ago when thinking of this. Our idea was to take the fun combat aspects of heavy scout, while allowing Adv scout to be the true top scout.

I suggest using the fighter chassis, like with a figbee.

The Defender

* Restricted to lite / cruise booster.
* Normal 3 gat guns for the pilot. If people want to keep the QL missiles, this is where to put them. Alternatively normal Enh fighter missile racks, but allow hunters. Prox dispenser.
* Full AC turret for a gunner.
* No cost other than research.

In all other respects, like enh fighter.

[Vlymoxyd]

Again, 2 different kind of capital ship shield would be a good start.

I'd suggest making 1 shield for 3 man ships and another shield for 5 man ones.

Since 5/3= 1.66667 , I'd suggest to make 5 man ship shields 66.67% stronger than the 3 man version.


Here's an example of an overnerfed corvette:

I'd nerf the average power of these 2 shields by 33%(2000 HP from 3000HP) .

So the smaller shield would have 1500HP and the bigger one would have 2500HP.

As for the hull, I think that heavy armor and 1200HP(40% nerf) would again, be a good start. Ints might need a minigun damage mod perk against hvy armor, but figs should have no troubles against these corvettes.

3 figs(dis2) would do 144 dps on a corvette shield, 192 dps on the armor with their guns, 62.5 dps on the shield with dumbs(2) and 83.3 dps on the armor with dumbs.
you'd get about 206 dps on the shield and 275.3 dps on the armor. If the figs didn't die and had no bonus, they could kill the shield in 7.28 secs and the hull in 4.3 secs for a total of 11.5 sec. Give the figs a 20% bonus and they can kill a corvette in 9,5 seconds. Some figs dying in the process would make it longer, but there's no way the corvette should be able to kill 3 figs that fast.



On another note, I beleive that large shield should benefit more from upgrades than standard tech(25%). If we assume that large2 goes against mini2 ints and dis2 figs and that large3 goes against mini3 hvy ints and Adv figs with galvs, I think that large 3 is weaker vs adv tech than large 2 is vs enh ones.