Rix heavy scouts

[Broodwich]

why are you trying to take away the only fun ship to fly when you are sup

[Kap]

maybe you could reduce the damage of ql missiles or make them available to use for figs too

[Makida]

Would it be possible to design a special missile for heavy scouts that has a low damage modifier vs. util, but is effective against interceptors and such? The logic would then be, heavy scouts get a special missile to help defend them, since after all they're important, and important targets, in all sorts of situations, and by the time they get to "heavy," it should really be possible to give them some effective way to defend themselves. But they would not be as effective at hunting miners and what-not.

[Shizoku]

QUOTE (Broodwich @ Apr 10 2009, 09:25 AM) why are you trying to take away the only fun ship to fly when you are sup

[Adaven]

QUOTE (girlyboy @ Apr 10 2009, 11:53 AM) Would it be possible to design a special missile for heavy scouts that has a low damage modifier vs. util, but is effective against interceptors and such? The logic would then be, heavy scouts get a special missile to help defend them, since after all they're important, and important targets, in all sorts of situations, and by the time they get to "heavy," it should really be possible to give them some effective way to defend themselves. But they would not be as effective at hunting miners and what-not.

depends on how many dmg classes we have left to use.

[Andon]

At current count, none. But we are trying to condense some of the ones that it's just stupid to have apart

[Valiance]

QUOTE (Andon @ Apr 10 2009, 01:44 PM) At current count, none. But we are trying to condense some of the ones that it's just stupid to have apart

What is on the quickfire damage class thingy besides quickfires? because it is partially the damage class which helps to make them totally useless.

[Clay_Pigeon]

QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 10 2009, 11:46 AM) Tiny Tweak as in:
Removal of QL's
Removal of Mini AC
Removal of Mini AC and they get 2 front slots like GT scouts

At least that is the suggestions I read in this thread.

Edit: Clay also feels Adv Scouts should be a little suckier and be under Garr not starbase (correct me if wrong though Clay)

I think we should do one thing at a time. My Adv Scouts recommendation came out of whether or not we should move them to garrison. I suggested that we

1) Move them to Garr
2) In all of the ways that they are equal to hvy scouts and better than basic scouts, split the difference between the two (for example, set adv scout scanrange to 2700 to split the difference between basic scouts 2400 and hvy scouts 3000).

But that's peripheral to this discussion, and I don't think we should confuse adv scouts with whether or not hvy scouts are overpowered.

For the record, I think they are overpowered (specifically some variants). No, they aren't slugfest ships like mini 3 hvy ints, but their prox payload, scan range, low sig, high speed and high dps make them excellent at almost everything else. As far as tweaking them, there are tons of ways to do it, and I urge caution. Removing QL is a reasonable start. It actually simplifies the core, and doesn't raise any issues on what to do about giga lux scouts.

-T

PS. I still want my $#@!ing pony!

[Adept]

QUOTE (Clay_Pigeon @ Apr 11 2009, 08:35 AM) PS. I still want my $#@!ing pony!

One day I'll get rich by some weird stroke of luck, and then Clay will be really confused when, years from now he's fedexed a pony.

[zombywoof]

For the record I am not trying to prove anyone wrong, just running numbers. I decided to go Bios v Bios for this test in TEK. I'll also throw in the Rix numbers afterwords, and maybe the flux. All will have a KB of 10 and assume 100% accuracy. This is a comparison not a qualitative analysis, so the error for assuming a KB of 10 and accuracy of 100% for figs is covered by assuming the same conditions for a fig.

QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 10 2009, 07:49 AM) Gatt 2 + Dumb 2 A Fig

9.7 seconds, .32 clips, five missiles, range of 2025 assuming it's boosting and traveling at 200 mps

QUOTE Gatt 2 + Dumb 2 + Mini AC 2 Hvy Scout?[/quote]
9.3 seconds, .26 clips, 5 missiles, range of 2130 with a speed of 150 mps (this drops to 25 seconds without the mini-AC2)

For RIX (on BIOS miners)

QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 10 2009, 07:49 AM) Gatt 2 + Dumb 2 A Fig

15 seconds, .5 clips, range of 720.

QUOTE Mini AC 2 + Dumb 2 + Mini AC 2 Hvy Scout?[/quote]
8.3 seconds, .8 clips, range of 1200

For TF (on BIOS miners)

QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 10 2009, 07:49 AM) Gatt 2 + Dumb 2 A Fig Hvy Plas Gen 1

17.4 seconds, .72 clips, 1.27 batteries, range 600m

QUOTE Gatt 2 + Dumb 2 + Mini AC 2 Hvy Scout + Hvy Plas Gen 1?[/quote]
12.7 seconds, .82 clips, 1.16 batteries, range 1000m

Other mitigating factors:
Heavy scouts require two pilots, so the DPS per pilot is lower by far.
Heavy scouts have significantly lower signature than fighters.
Fighters are faster, except when you are playing Belters. They are much faster when your commander buys heavy booster.
Fighters are significantly tougher than scouts.
Heavy scouts see ~ 3.7 times as far as figs
Fighters turn better
Heavy scouts have more mass
Heavy scouts accelerate faster (excluding booster)

In conclusion:
Spidey, you're wrong about QL df2 being worse than mini AC according to tek data. In fact, according to the tech data, the dumb2 means nothing next to the miniAC-2. That's not to say that heavy scouts aren't overpowered (they may be, I don't claim one way or the other) just that QL DF has less of an impact than you might think. But you are right that heavy scouts kill miners faster than figs, it's just because of miniAC, not because of DF.

HSharp, your inclusion of techbases in the cost of heavy scouts is insane.

Adept, rix heavy scouts aren't exactly cheese. They're certainly beatable by interceptors (what isn't?) and you're usually going expansion against Rix anyways. Plus with heavy booster I bet you that two figs will beat a rix heavy scout pretty much of the time.

Simba, I'm not sure how the $#@! you're DFspiking bombers with nans in a single scout with QL df2. Four DF3 with missile damage 2 does 720 (before faction perks/nerfs) and bombers have 800 HP. I guess if its shields were down... and with 13.6 seconds on the basic TP con (17.9 for enh) before you kill it I guess the other team decided that it didn't want to defend its constructor? Twenty seconds is plenty of time to defend. And all those calcs are assuming 100% accuracy... hint: you're not that uber.

Valiance, no guns use DM14, which is what quickfires use.