Groundbreaking Defense Against Belts Caps Discovered!
Your wit defeats me, I concede my resign /wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":iluv:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" />factoid wrote:QUOTE (factoid @ Aug 17 2007, 03:30 PM) That one I can answer. The same thing that happens when your ints have to reload and the shields are down. Unlike base shields, ship shields recharge independently of hull damage.
I didn't take cadet because I'm not a believer!
(Plus I thought the forum badges were some silly fad I didn't want to be a part of /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> )
P.S. Joke post, it has no arguemental value in this discussion, don't de-rail it though! It was starting to get interesting
Last edited by Drizzo on Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
Now you've done it...Drizzo wrote:QUOTE (Drizzo @ Aug 17 2007, 03:10 PM) P.S. Joke post, it has no arguemental value in this discussion, don't de-rail it though! It was starting to get interesting
QUOTE RT: The number of typical responses decreases exponentially as the number of joke options increases.[/quote]
Now here's the waffles and grits.
So say you're defending vs. a belts frig, since that's the said example. Since it's a pick-up game, I'll try to use pick up game variables.
You have the frig pilot, most likely a vet, and probably an @GB (what can I say, they like blowing stuff up), then you get 3 random ass gunners (2 voobs and a numbered newb)
Then the commander busts his balls to get the team to nan the frig while probably he has an @RT or @PK out hunting the enemy miners (hee hee). So if this is prime time, which it probably was, then you're looking at teams of about 20 v 20. Let me run the numbers for you.
4 - Frigate
5 - Nans
4 - Clueless newbies learning how to fly
5 - Sitting in fighters/whatever trying to score some kills while everyone is shooting the frig ($#@!ing voobs)
1 - Commander sitting his fat ass in base when he should BE NANNING like a good commander should (and leading from the front lines, like spidey taught me so well)
1 - @PK or @RT hunting miners (useful!)
That's 20 people. Breakdown of your average PUG (Pick up game)
On the defending side
FederalMan - Spouting something odd (I'm being polite here)
13 ints
3 of which are vets
6 of which are voobs
4 of which are newbs
Plus 2 prox scouts
The other 5 are off doing god knows what.
This is a rough guess to what happend when @#(! went down;
2/4 Newbs probably boosted into the aleph and died (on the otherside)
3/6 voobs were probably too close to the aleph and quickly were munched on by the turrets/took ram damage from the frig
The other 3 voobs were probably still in base. When they launch, they'll overboost and either die ramming the capship, or eating prox.
So for a brief moment you had ~8-12 ints pumping mini2 into the capship since it just entered. BIOS ints too, so they have the standard 450 clip. That means you garnered a precious ~6 seconds of mini2 fire. Reload! That's 3 seconds of sitting around being a target before you can dump more ammo into the frigate. Did I forget to mention your BIOS ints have weaker hulls too? By the time you reload, ZOMG! The nans have arrivied! So even if you managed to erase the shields, your defense is kaput because they're all pumping ammo into the frig, and you probably have your 3 vets trying to plug nans while under skycap fire.
Epic fail.
Let's see what would happen if we add EMP cannons into the equation
15 defending ints (For the record we're talking ints, not hvy ints)
the newbs don't know how to switch guns, and will more then likely be shooting Mini (2-4)
3 of your voobs will probably mount all EMP
The other 3 will more then likely mount all Mini to get the kill
your 2 prox droppers will help drop the shields
The 3 vets will either mount 1 EMP and 1 minigun, or both Miniguns
That gives you approx. 13 miniguns and 9 EMP cannons or 20 Miniguns and 6 EMP Cannons. Or a combination of those two numbers.
Do the math. That shield will drop faster then Miss USA AND the combined minigun power is sufficient enough to outdamage the nans.
Certainly beats the hell out of trying to remove a good chunk of the shields with prox alone while your ammo guzzling miniguns try to take out the shields AND the hull.
So say you're defending vs. a belts frig, since that's the said example. Since it's a pick-up game, I'll try to use pick up game variables.
You have the frig pilot, most likely a vet, and probably an @GB (what can I say, they like blowing stuff up), then you get 3 random ass gunners (2 voobs and a numbered newb)
Then the commander busts his balls to get the team to nan the frig while probably he has an @RT or @PK out hunting the enemy miners (hee hee). So if this is prime time, which it probably was, then you're looking at teams of about 20 v 20. Let me run the numbers for you.
4 - Frigate
5 - Nans
4 - Clueless newbies learning how to fly
5 - Sitting in fighters/whatever trying to score some kills while everyone is shooting the frig ($#@!ing voobs)
1 - Commander sitting his fat ass in base when he should BE NANNING like a good commander should (and leading from the front lines, like spidey taught me so well)
1 - @PK or @RT hunting miners (useful!)
That's 20 people. Breakdown of your average PUG (Pick up game)
On the defending side
FederalMan - Spouting something odd (I'm being polite here)
13 ints
3 of which are vets
6 of which are voobs
4 of which are newbs
Plus 2 prox scouts
The other 5 are off doing god knows what.
This is a rough guess to what happend when @#(! went down;
2/4 Newbs probably boosted into the aleph and died (on the otherside)
3/6 voobs were probably too close to the aleph and quickly were munched on by the turrets/took ram damage from the frig
The other 3 voobs were probably still in base. When they launch, they'll overboost and either die ramming the capship, or eating prox.
So for a brief moment you had ~8-12 ints pumping mini2 into the capship since it just entered. BIOS ints too, so they have the standard 450 clip. That means you garnered a precious ~6 seconds of mini2 fire. Reload! That's 3 seconds of sitting around being a target before you can dump more ammo into the frigate. Did I forget to mention your BIOS ints have weaker hulls too? By the time you reload, ZOMG! The nans have arrivied! So even if you managed to erase the shields, your defense is kaput because they're all pumping ammo into the frig, and you probably have your 3 vets trying to plug nans while under skycap fire.
Epic fail.
Let's see what would happen if we add EMP cannons into the equation
15 defending ints (For the record we're talking ints, not hvy ints)
the newbs don't know how to switch guns, and will more then likely be shooting Mini (2-4)
3 of your voobs will probably mount all EMP
The other 3 will more then likely mount all Mini to get the kill
your 2 prox droppers will help drop the shields
The 3 vets will either mount 1 EMP and 1 minigun, or both Miniguns
That gives you approx. 13 miniguns and 9 EMP cannons or 20 Miniguns and 6 EMP Cannons. Or a combination of those two numbers.
Do the math. That shield will drop faster then Miss USA AND the combined minigun power is sufficient enough to outdamage the nans.
Certainly beats the hell out of trying to remove a good chunk of the shields with prox alone while your ammo guzzling miniguns try to take out the shields AND the hull.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
My personal experience showed me that not getting mini works better for PU games in 20 vs 20 when 2 frigates are used. A squad game would probably be different, but I'll tell you something, I've seen teams of 10 ints easily stop a cruiser with minis and I've seen many teams of 20 being unable to do that cause there were too many emps.
Main reasons why it also works in practice(team of 20 players):
- In PU games, most frig pilots will let their shields gets killed by mines and make emp unnecessary(It's actually why I always get the kills /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> ).
-In PU games, people will get a frigate, won't even load heavy cloak, they'll get eyes, camp for 10 min and then, when the other team is ready and camped, they will go in. There's usally a high % of defenders against cap ships, mostly because they make everyone piss in their pants(even in games where it should be cause it's funny how easy they are to stop).
- The armor is a lot stronger than the shield and bigger games + mass nans actually mean that the armor maters even more.
-I haven't done the maths, but 20-26 miniguns will bring a frigate shield down in no time.
I used to think that emps were a must in PU games like everyone else, but from the moment I've seen these 20 heavy ints with mass emp unable to stop 1 frigate, I've payed more attention and noticed that emps really aren't that great.
Abs and emps missiles also does a much better job than emp guns.
But the best is still an aleph res /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
Main reasons why it also works in practice(team of 20 players):
- In PU games, most frig pilots will let their shields gets killed by mines and make emp unnecessary(It's actually why I always get the kills /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> ).
-In PU games, people will get a frigate, won't even load heavy cloak, they'll get eyes, camp for 10 min and then, when the other team is ready and camped, they will go in. There's usally a high % of defenders against cap ships, mostly because they make everyone piss in their pants(even in games where it should be cause it's funny how easy they are to stop).
- The armor is a lot stronger than the shield and bigger games + mass nans actually mean that the armor maters even more.
-I haven't done the maths, but 20-26 miniguns will bring a frigate shield down in no time.
I used to think that emps were a must in PU games like everyone else, but from the moment I've seen these 20 heavy ints with mass emp unable to stop 1 frigate, I've payed more attention and noticed that emps really aren't that great.
Abs and emps missiles also does a much better job than emp guns.
But the best is still an aleph res /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
We're talking about people who listen to BladeofGod here. I doubt they would be able to remember to switch weapons correctly in the middle of killing a capship.Vlymoxyd wrote:QUOTE (Vlymoxyd @ Aug 18 2007, 01:45 AM) You didn't include switching weapons in your calculation(I'm guessing), so a smart team would probably still kill the cap faster with emps(+ a switch to mini after the shields are down).
EMP cannon doesn't affect Hull, at all. Kind of forgot to take that into account. The fact that EMP is area damage is a laughable consideration since you are firing at the broad side of a barn.pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Aug 18 2007, 02:04 AM) You're totaly wrong... /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
This is the formula:
Damage/sec = (1 sec / Shoot interval) * damage per shoot * DM modifier
PS:
This will ignore area damage of EMP Canon!
EMP Can 1:
(1 / 0.25) * 9 * 1 = 36 damage/sec (+ area damage)
EMP Can 2:
(1 / 0.25) * 11.25 * 1 = 45 damage/sec (+ area damage)
Mini 2:
(1 / 0.078) * 5 * 0.5 = 32. damage/sec
Mini 3:
(1 / 0.082) * 6.25 * 0.5 = 38.11 damage/sec
Last edited by Seymor on Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All in all you are a very dying race // Placing trust upon a cruel world. // You never had the things you thought you should have had //
And you'll not get them now, // And all the while in perfect time // Your tears are falling on the ground. -- Squonk, Genesis
I rarely get ito this kind of debate since there are so many different outcomes but...
Dear Comms
Dont listen to Drizzo or Spidey and Stay the $#@! in the base unless:
A) Your a scary SOB whore at the level of Drizzo, Weed, Sheff etc ( around 2 to 1 kill/podded ratio )
Your at the scary SOB comm level Spidey, Dream, Aarm, etc ( around 2 to 1 wins/losses ratio)
C) your saving a miner or con in a nan scout
D) Want to lose
Thanks and go back to the debate
Dear Comms
Dont listen to Drizzo or Spidey and Stay the $#@! in the base unless:
A) Your a scary SOB whore at the level of Drizzo, Weed, Sheff etc ( around 2 to 1 kill/podded ratio )
Your at the scary SOB comm level Spidey, Dream, Aarm, etc ( around 2 to 1 wins/losses ratio)C) your saving a miner or con in a nan scout
D) Want to lose
Thanks and go back to the debate
Ssssh