Carbon, who said ANYTHING about getting rid of players? We have dozens of servers at any given time for people to use. A lot of other gaming communities have some sort of ranked servers.
No one is talking about forcing anyone to play on any particular server. No one is talking about forcing anyone to join a squad.
It is obvious too many people are going to get extremely upset over this. The whole initial discussion was about having somewhere were more experienced players could play a better quality pug.
The discussion now is how to identify them.
But even if we went to a rank 8 and above server, we are still screwed.
Just take this whole idea of trying to do something for the betterment of a large group within the community and toss it.
I mean really, what would be the difference if a couple of squads picked a night and said, "OK, lets play a scrimmage, mix up the teams and not allow anyone not in the squad to play?" They went to an empty server and played. No matter what, people would still be upset they could not play on the server. The whole point is a lot of vet squadded players are not playing during the week as Void pointed out. What is wrong with offering that group an option?
I guess I will just shutup and walk away.
Allegiance - The Future
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BlackViper
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carbon wrote:QUOTE (carbon @ Jul 27 2007, 12:20 PM) Exactly AEM, Narg and Puggle.
At the end of the day, that is what this is - a way to get rid of players who are thought of as useless so the quality of games improves - lets be honest about it.
This will be to the detriment of the community as a whole.
And Grav, you are banned from quoting any of this post, you're driving me nuts with your quote and counterpointing all of my posts in this thread! /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":lol:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />
how the hell is this idea a way to get rid of players?
Right now, we usually have one big game and some small games. Instead of having 60 people causing sector overloads on one server, it may knock it down to 30-40 people instead. It might IMPROVE game quality.
There is still going to be a server for everyone to play on, I know I will still hit that server regularly. However once in awhile, having a match of just experienced players is a good thing.
BV is right, what is to stop a group of vets right now of moving to another open server and only allowing vets to play?
I say VETS...not just tagged folks...There are some good mercs out there who would be a benefit to any team.
They do not have to be in the top 100.....they just have to know what the hell is going on. Know enough to launch and scout out alephs or D cons or hunt miners or nan bombers.
Is it REALLY the downfall of allegiance if we want to play in a game that tests our ability to play somewhat? I, for one, welcome the idea of the challenge. It will really improve game quality and add a new facet to this community. If handled right, it could be a very good thing.
Join Alleg....learn to play, join Cadet...test your skills on the Advanced servers, see how you 'stack' up (pun intended)
/mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" />
I don't think anyone is arguing against us needing PUG quality to improve drastically. It sounds like it has even gotten a lot worse since I last logged on and tried to play a game. Yes, the problem is making the division between those allowed on the server and those who aren't. It really needs to be something both systematic (no guessing/opinion involved on individuals getting to play on the server) and fair. Squad only is systematic but not fair to those who appreciate that level of gameplay but for whatever reason are not part of a squad.
To me, the obvious best way to do this is to base it on rank. But more accurate ranks are necessary for this to work. If we have people running around with rank 9 who don't know how to nan then ranks clearly are not accurate. If the ranking system works, any argument stating that some people will be excluded because their rank is to low should not matter. You raise your rank on the regular server and then move on to the high ranking server. Seems like a simple concept to me. Everyone has the ability to "earn" access to the high level server and no one who works to get there is excluded. But again, we need an accurate ranking system here. One that is based purely on a team's effort, rather than each individuals contribution to the teams effort, is not going to work for this.
The only other systematic and fair method I can think of is passing a test, which has been brought up before but mostly rejected. Until when/if we have accurate ranks this still seems to me to be the way to go. It is only a minor hassle that people are making a big deal over but if you are willing to take the tests you already are showing some interest in having improved gameplay. Basically just have an online test of maybe 25 randomly generated questions pulled from a very large pool of questions. Allow 20-30 seconds per question so that there is no time to look up answers while taking the test. If you get them all correct, you get access to the improved gameplay server. If there are problems with people on the improved gameplay servers they lose their access for some time (and possibly have to pass the test again). Simple as that. Spend 10 minutes taking a test and have years of improved PUGs. There is no requirement that says you have to take the test to play Allegiance. You can play on the regular server all you want until you decide you want to step up and have better gameplay.
Feel free to make Squad events, several hours on specified nights, at most two days a week, where only squadded players have access. That is an "event", not a segregated community. The problem there is of course, time zones. Going with others one night to scrimmage on an empty server, again, is an "event", not segregation.
One important issue to be considered is the fact that gameplay on the "regular" servers will decrease even further. This means that those playing on them will learn bad habits and/or learn slower just as is common already on the newbie server. We will have to stress @Cadet even more and allow those who have been in @Cadet a few weeks, so they aren't brand new and have no clue what they are doing, to have access to this vet server. In addition, I feel that in the interest of hurting the learning process, you may still want to consider having this restricted access server be available certain 3-5 days out of the week instead of 24/7. But that is just a thought I'm throwing out there. As long as we stress @Cadet and allow current Cadets and grads access to the restricted server it shouldn't be a problem anyway.
To me, the obvious best way to do this is to base it on rank. But more accurate ranks are necessary for this to work. If we have people running around with rank 9 who don't know how to nan then ranks clearly are not accurate. If the ranking system works, any argument stating that some people will be excluded because their rank is to low should not matter. You raise your rank on the regular server and then move on to the high ranking server. Seems like a simple concept to me. Everyone has the ability to "earn" access to the high level server and no one who works to get there is excluded. But again, we need an accurate ranking system here. One that is based purely on a team's effort, rather than each individuals contribution to the teams effort, is not going to work for this.
The only other systematic and fair method I can think of is passing a test, which has been brought up before but mostly rejected. Until when/if we have accurate ranks this still seems to me to be the way to go. It is only a minor hassle that people are making a big deal over but if you are willing to take the tests you already are showing some interest in having improved gameplay. Basically just have an online test of maybe 25 randomly generated questions pulled from a very large pool of questions. Allow 20-30 seconds per question so that there is no time to look up answers while taking the test. If you get them all correct, you get access to the improved gameplay server. If there are problems with people on the improved gameplay servers they lose their access for some time (and possibly have to pass the test again). Simple as that. Spend 10 minutes taking a test and have years of improved PUGs. There is no requirement that says you have to take the test to play Allegiance. You can play on the regular server all you want until you decide you want to step up and have better gameplay.
Feel free to make Squad events, several hours on specified nights, at most two days a week, where only squadded players have access. That is an "event", not a segregated community. The problem there is of course, time zones. Going with others one night to scrimmage on an empty server, again, is an "event", not segregation.
One important issue to be considered is the fact that gameplay on the "regular" servers will decrease even further. This means that those playing on them will learn bad habits and/or learn slower just as is common already on the newbie server. We will have to stress @Cadet even more and allow those who have been in @Cadet a few weeks, so they aren't brand new and have no clue what they are doing, to have access to this vet server. In addition, I feel that in the interest of hurting the learning process, you may still want to consider having this restricted access server be available certain 3-5 days out of the week instead of 24/7. But that is just a thought I'm throwing out there. As long as we stress @Cadet and allow current Cadets and grads access to the restricted server it shouldn't be a problem anyway.
Last edited by aem on Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is nothing wrong with that, it's a good idea; I'm just worried about it being 24/7 as discussed in this thread and tagged squad members only. The main servers will have voob tumbleweed rolling through them.BlackViper wrote:QUOTE (BlackViper @ Jul 27 2007, 06:01 PM) I mean really, what would be the difference if a couple of squads picked a night and said, "OK, lets play a scrimmage, mix up the teams and not allow anyone not in the squad to play?" They went to an empty server and played. No matter what, people would still be upset they could not play on the server. The whole point is a lot of vet squadded players are not playing during the week as Void pointed out. What is wrong with offering that group an option?
Ah, now you are talking about letting mercs play on this server? That was not the original proposal.Badger wrote:QUOTE (Badger @ Jul 27 2007, 06:14 PM) I say VETS...not just tagged folks...There are some good mercs out there who would be a benefit to any team.
This is the situation as it stands, learn on the newb server, join the advanced server (main server).Badger wrote:QUOTE (Badger @ Jul 27 2007, 06:14 PM) Join Alleg....learn to play, join Cadet...test your skills on the Advanced servers, see how you 'stack' up (pun intended)
Please BV, I have top respect for your opinion and there is no anger or animosity from my side of the fence, I'm just being the devils advocate.BlackViper wrote:QUOTE (BlackViper @ Jul 27 2007, 06:01 PM) I guess I will just shutup and walk away.
Pkk, thank you very much for taking the time to point me to the relevant information, i just emailed a copy to my lawyers, along with links to general microsoft research license, i'll wait for their professional analysis before making any claims ofcourse, but as far as i can tell, the license only applies to software itself and the use of this software and derivative works.pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Jul 27 2007, 06:38 PM) You find it inside the sourcecode download (http://research.microsoft.com/Allegiance/):
Sometime next week, i'll get definitive answers and i'll make sure to post it, so that any kind of missinterpretation would be cleared up once and for all.
However, right now, i am unable to see how a side business would be related to the code itself or to it's use.... Since players would still continue to use it for free and no business specific additions would be introduced into it...
My intent is not to take control of alleg out of current admins/players/developers hands, but rather to give those same people something in return for making this whole community happen in a first place. If we can make some money for everyone, i don't see the reason why we shouldn't.
Anyways, i'll wait for barristers to make their judgement. If there is a chance to make it happen, they'll find it, plus i am willing to invest money into getting a ruling from US courts in regard to what i proposed, what i am after here on forums is the position of the community on the prospect of being able to make money by playing/supporting/developing the game.
Addictive as Dopamine, Exciting as Norepinephrine, Deadly as Glutamate
Carbon brings up valid points even if they are just opinions. If mercs really feel that squad members are just elitest types looking to whore on mercs, well I guess we can't help that much although I think its a rather low opinion of many I know in that category of whome I know this isn't true. I think you will find that mercs like to whore it up more than squadies and I think you will find that squadies push more for the game ending goals than mercs. But again that is just my opinion based of what I actually see in game play.carbon wrote:QUOTE (carbon @ Jul 27 2007, 04:13 AM) Well, looks like if this plan worked out, then the open servers would turn into a pure whoring ground for squaded players who want to let off steam by using hiders and beating down on the noobs and voobs; whilst enjoying 'balanced' gameplay on their own little professional server.
Oh wait a minute, that is Allegiance anyway.. /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":lol:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />
Be in a squad, or be forced to play on tier-based servers which would spit the already thinning player base.
noob server, voob server or decent gameplay server, bah!
Well, that would certainly serve as an incentive to be part of a squad.
Yeah, it's mostly in my head, but there is the occasional moment that makes it all worthwhile.
Now if this is what you really think of squad players then I would think you would rejoice in the fact that a plan like this would get these dirty elitest squadies off the open servers for any amount of time so they can't whore away.
Now as for implementing that might give an incentive for people to join squads or something good for the people already in them, I don't see the harm in that as well, especially if it is not directly hurting other players bases. If we implemented something that would help out mercs, would it be right for squadies to oppose it because its not for them? Although I think this will benefit both sides.
Also, there is nothing to stop a merc from joining @CDT and then having access to this server. This will also give a merc the chance to see if they like the squad style of play. Sorta like free samples of food. Try it you might like it.
Again, this is not about skill level, its about a style of play. The open servers try to accompass all players and all styles of play, that doesn't always suffice, you can't please everyone. So instead of alot of us leaving, we are trying to make the game more enjoyable while leaving the open servers as is instead of making changes to them and effecting your game play significantly.
Just some thoughts.
"Someday, We'll Find It... The Rainbow Connection." ~ Kermit
Whoa, please don't misinterpret me, that was just a knee-jerk reaction to this post:TheVoid37 wrote:QUOTE (TheVoid37 @ Jul 27 2007, 07:40 PM) Now if this is what you really think of squad players then I would think you would rejoice in the fact that a plan like this would get these dirty elitest squadies off the open servers for any amount of time so they can't whore away.
I do not think badly of players in squads, just need to clear that up - just a little Allegiance humor.Mr. Kltplzyxm wrote:QUOTE (Mr. Kltplzyxm @ Jul 27 2007, 02:42 AM) Don't forget, you can't use hiders on the Squad Server. It's inevitable that squaded players will want to whore from time to time, in which case they need to go to the open servers.
They already do.carbon wrote:QUOTE (carbon @ Jul 27 2007, 11:05 AM) There is nothing wrong with that, it's a good idea; I'm just worried about it being 24/7 as discussed in this thread and tagged squad members only. The main servers will have voob tumbleweed rolling through them.
QUOTE Please BV, I have top respect for your opinion and there is no anger or animosity from my side of the fence, I'm just being the devils advocate.[/quote]
Devil's advocate implies that you are doing this all for the sake of argument. If this is so, please stop wasting our time.
I'm not sure what you are trying to do here. You want to make money off of Allegiance? (And have it go to devs or admins?)voipscout wrote:QUOTE (voipscout @ Jul 27 2007, 11:19 AM) Pkk, thank you very much for taking the time to point me to the relevant information, i just emailed a copy to my lawyers, along with links to general microsoft research license, i'll wait for their professional analysis before making any claims ofcourse, but as far as i can tell, the license only applies to software itself and the use of this software and derivative works.
Sometime next week, i'll get definitive answers and i'll make sure to post it, so that any kind of missinterpretation would be cleared up once and for all.
However, right now, i am unable to see how a side business would be related to the code itself or to it's use.... Since players would still continue to use it for free and no business specific additions would be introduced into it...
My intent is not to take control of alleg out of current admins/players/developers hands, but rather to give those same people something in return for making this whole community happen in a first place. If we can make some money for everyone, i don't see the reason why we shouldn't.
Anyways, i'll wait for barristers to make their judgement. If there is a chance to make it happen, they'll find it, plus i am willing to invest money into getting a ruling from US courts in regard to what i proposed, what i am after here on forums is the position of the community on the prospect of being able to make money by playing/supporting/developing the game.
Lemme be the first to say $#@! OFF. I don't want to pay per month or fly a Nike Interceptor. Go away. EDIT: I just checked because a person would have to be quite dense to propose something like that. You didn't propose just that, something equally stupid though. A betting system? In a tiny community, half of which is under 18? You'd have 2 people betting, maybe. Offsetting the cost of the website would be impossible.
Guys, we DO have a ranking system in place that works 10 times better than the current system. Its good enough to even base the servers off of it so people wouldn't have to join the evil, evil squads! AGE RANK. Other than bozos like Vandal, those ranks were accurate. Dump this helo crap and use age rank.
TB
EDIT2: Might as well give up on the squad only server because people are going to bitch until it goes away (as is their right). Its clear |crap games > joining a squad and actually playing the game|.
Last edited by TheBored on Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[18:48] <Imago> dont take me seriouslyspideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Nov 28 2008, 02:50 PM) All the retards are contained in one squad mostly (System X)
I am a member of this community and as such my opinion is valid, so I am not wasting anyones time, except my own.TheBored wrote:QUOTE (TheBored @ Jul 27 2007, 07:55 PM) Devil's advocate implies that you are doing this all for the sake of argument. If this is so, please stop wasting our time.
Last edited by carbon on Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't mind that people are opposed to the idea, discussion is good I just think alot of your worries won't come to bare.
Why not try it for a month and see, if it totaly screws things up for the main server then we @#(! can the idea. Worst case scenario you get a months vacation.
For this to totally hurt the main server all the things below would have to happen and I don't see that happening.
- Squadiess have skill mercs don't.
- Squadies only want to end the game, mercs have no team cooperation.
- Squadies will never ever play on the main server and will sit and chat in the new server only.
The pattern that I go through will keep repeating. New game comes out, play it for a while instead of alleg, except for squad nights. I know others who are in this boat as well. So instead your keep more people around = larger community. I think you will also find that many players will have more patience, there will be a more relaxed atmosphere and more tolerance on the open server. You will find vets more willing to share knowledge and spend more time with newbies. More vets in the community sharing knowledge and actively playing can't be a bad thing IMHO.
Edit:
Carbon, I don't know what your real opinion is I can only go off what you say. If you don't think that way of squads great, but it comes off that way. Either way the opinion may be represented by others therefore it is a valid opinion that I wanted to address. I just don't know why some would be so adamant about even trying it when it could possibly help the community. /shrugg oh well.
Why not try it for a month and see, if it totaly screws things up for the main server then we @#(! can the idea. Worst case scenario you get a months vacation.
For this to totally hurt the main server all the things below would have to happen and I don't see that happening.
- Squadiess have skill mercs don't.
- Squadies only want to end the game, mercs have no team cooperation.
- Squadies will never ever play on the main server and will sit and chat in the new server only.
The pattern that I go through will keep repeating. New game comes out, play it for a while instead of alleg, except for squad nights. I know others who are in this boat as well. So instead your keep more people around = larger community. I think you will also find that many players will have more patience, there will be a more relaxed atmosphere and more tolerance on the open server. You will find vets more willing to share knowledge and spend more time with newbies. More vets in the community sharing knowledge and actively playing can't be a bad thing IMHO.
Edit:
Carbon, I don't know what your real opinion is I can only go off what you say. If you don't think that way of squads great, but it comes off that way. Either way the opinion may be represented by others therefore it is a valid opinion that I wanted to address. I just don't know why some would be so adamant about even trying it when it could possibly help the community. /shrugg oh well.
Last edited by TheVoid37 on Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Someday, We'll Find It... The Rainbow Connection." ~ Kermit