I am sick of it

[Ksero]

QUOTE (Semarin @ Apr 18 2007, 06:31 PM) Ksero, how can you asume that a person with a 2 to 1 win ratio is stacking? Why can't that person simply be THAT good? THere is a massive massive disticintion between myself and Aarm. Aarm is jsut plain good enough to beat an entire team almost by himself. There are several other players that are nearly as good as well. Unless your saying that Aarm simply IS the stack whenever he plays.

You draw an inaccurate conclusion with your numbers that anyone who wins more games than they lose is a stacker, and I argue that its not nearly so black and white. Skill, knowledge, SA, blah blah blah blah blah all are factors, not JUST the stack. You are comign up with nubmers and drawing a single conclusion that isn;t entirely supported by those numbers. As they say, you can find statistics that will support ANY arguement.

Maybe someone is jsut a paticularly good miner killer. Doing that on a consistant basis will definatley net you more wins than losses all by itself. Maybe someone is paticularly good with HTT's, naning, bombing, et al. Any of thse things can truely sway the outcome of entire games all the time.

If you have a win/loss ratio of 2:1, that doesn't mean that you're good. That means that in most games, you're better compared to the other team's pilots. Ie. that you're flying for a better team. Ie. that you have a higher chance of winning. Ie. that the teams are uneven. Ie. that you're flying with the stack (no matter if you attract the stack, if you join it or if you are the stack)

[DreamWalker]

@Ksero

QUOTE The linear trend merely shows that those with higher helo scores generally stack more[/quote]

those with higher helo generally win more?

QUOTE That he's below the trend line means that he stacks less than an average player of his skill.[/quote]

What do you use as a quantification of the player's skill? Helo vs the amount of games he wins tells you whether a person stacks or not? For various games you get different amount of helo if I understand correctly.

Anyways, if indeed (and I can agree with that, this is a mental experiment of sorts) all games were perfectly balanced each of us would lose as much as we win, right? Cause uber players would face equally uber force on the other team, whereas coming from individual skills or from many less skilled players cooperating with each other.

Thus, the more helo in general you have, the more of a tendency you have to stack. Helo represents than as much your ability to contribute to your team's winning, as it represents the ability of you forming/picking the right team to win.

Thus, leader board should be scratched, in as ranking should be not arranged by helo. In game helo values should not be displayed. AB as an idea is right on target, though the algorithm should be fixed. AB should be always turned on NOT to balance players based on their skills, but to counteract for individual tendencies to stack.

This makes sense. And it takes out of the discussion the argument whether helo represents individual skills well or not.

With the moment that AB is enforced at all time, the word stacker will have to disappear from our vocabulary. A stacker will be a person with higher helo, who earned it in even games. Thus, by definition, he won't be able to stack cause the system will counter balance for it. And so the "stacker" will have to win with weaker teams to have high helo. In order for the team to win that the stacker is on, he will have to contribute to the team as much/more than his helo suggests to win the game and to increase his helo.

Thus, for helo to work, AB has to be fixed and enforced at all times. No manual alterations can be made to individual ranks. Never. Given the role of the commander in alleg, and that it is a team game, helo will only be a rough estimate of individual skill. An estimate that should allow for more balanced games. Helo with AB on will be first a primary tool to counterbalance for individual tendencies to stack.

Thus, for helo to work it in as much has to be a reflection of:
- individual ability to detect a winning team/com/faction choice on map and money setts (if we can see that from the lobby and we constantly will be joining the winning team, thus earning helo, we will be forced to support the weaker team by the AB in the longer run)
- individual tendency to stack defined as willingness to join the stronger side
- individual ability to cooperate and ability to work as a team
as of our
- our individual skill level.

I don't know than if helo should be made public, unless we want helo to be in as much representation of skill as being the good guy (ability to encourage your team to cooperate, pull the team to victory, propensity for helping the weaker guys and so on).

This however means that a KGJV's (5) or TB's (7) is completely out of the scope of discussion, as the system in the longer run doesn't rely on that. helo will be more than a community thermometer than it is anything else. It shouldn't be curved than, but rather than that helo should be represented linearly on scale of pretty much any size, but one that will allow for some precision (not too small). Curving by assigning rank to raw score would only bring the system out of whack.

Now, this might be the smartest thing I have written on helo, or the stupidest one. I think I'm right though that if we stop looking at helo as a representation of personal skill, and start looking at it as some objective mechanism to measure how members in our community tend to interact, than we can actually make it work and let it correct the tendency to join the winning side, that each of us has, for some it is more important than for the other.

The funny thing is, that should this system be enforced, it would once again be "okay" to be willing to win, and as I believe rav suggests in a different thread would put an end to whining about imbalance. You could blame the system, but a system that is so transparent and so simple in the end should roughly balance itself out. And if an individual game seems to be a bit out of whack to you, maybe it is because your judgment of how much does an individual person actually contribute to the team is out of whack. This system will in as much counterbalance stacking (even if it only corrects for our propensity to chose the wining side) in as much as it will put an end to whining about stack. In the longer run your individual willingness to fly for the stronger or weaker team should be taken out of the equation by the system (yeah, it works both way).

helo without AB turned on produces false stats, and higher individual helo could be indication of anything, ability to stack, to pull the team after you, to pull the better players after you, pretty much anything. Even ability to look at the numbers and join the team with the higher helo.

There is a beauty to numbers that is not there when you talk about opinions.

Hmmm.

DW

[DreamWalker]

@Sem

The whole premise of this system is that if AB is turned on, and if you are a good miner killer, in the longer run the system will put someone on the other team who will on general contribute to the team's success as much as you would. Or if a single person would not be able to contribute as much as you to the team's success, for each Sem joining a team, the other team would get two players.

Well, talk about the cult of the hero going downhill.

[pkk]

Just another nonsense graph:

[Jormagund]

Jotma more awake but still pissy about long posts. Stop posting big or wait til i have time to catch up. Jorma demands this.

[Ksero]

pkk and Jorma, can you please consider contributing to the discussion instead of just posting? Thank you.

[Greator_SST]

...short post. DW, that's what we've been saying since the very beginning. Just turn AB on.

[spideycw]

I'm sorry AB sucks. We had a nice game last night where I was down 2 the whole time because I couldnt accept one damn player. Gee how awesome if I had another 2 nans or hvy ints. AB should be turned on for games with 15+ per side. And even then I'm not sure if its a good idea.

[DreamWalker]

I have never come across any post that would lay it out to me like that and I had to listen to what ksero brought up to understand it myself.

All there was on the boards was whining, whining, and some more whining. And claiming that for helo to work it has to represent individual skills, which is apparently does not and doesn't have to, cause it measures much more. If helo is what it is, why even have leaderboard than, or why have leaderboard without AB turned on? This doesn't make sense.

Right now I think I understand a bit better the premises of helo, though I might be wrong, and probably I'm still in the dark when it comes to certain aspects of it.

Saying turn on AB mixed with whining and complaining, bitching, flaming, coming often from people seeing ghost stack or focusing on the games that exists on the outskirts of alleg (5 vs 5, hihiger, 1.25, 1.35, one team nix, the other IC), doesn't convince me.

Thanks for your post ksero, and I'm happy we see somewhat eye to eye greator.

DW

[Ksero]

Spidey, are you talking about the bugs that are present in the current implementation of auto-balance? Because those bugs can and will be fixed. If you're not talking about the bugs, could you clarify your arguments on why AB sucks?