Go to Forum Home

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> End Game
phoenix1
post Jul 1 2018, 07:13 AM
Post #1



Group Icon

Group: Moderator
Posts: 5,202
Joined: 13-July 08
From: Over the Rainbow

Squad: System X



This is a thread to talk about end-game balance.



Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) *
But I don't read the forums I only post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phoenix1
post Jul 1 2018, 07:41 AM
Post #2



Group Icon

Group: Moderator
Posts: 5,202
Joined: 13-July 08
From: Over the Rainbow

Squad: System X



Personally, I think the end-game balance in Allegiance has been rather poor from day 1. I have always felt that mini3 hvy ints are too good at defense. The ability of three or four hvy ints to spike out from under three or four nans is bad because the defense is *always* going to be down pilots. You have to have at least one HTT pilot and at least one nan pilot. Therefore the attacker has a disadvantage in firepower.

Metz fixed this problem by assigning lead indicators to a large number of ships, but I think this is both a poor fix and an incomplete fix:

1) Lead indicators simply work by allowing the numerically disadvantaged attacker to get a "power boost" which overwhelms the defender.

2) Lead indicators do not stop spiking, which leads to the same grind-em-out gameplay that lead indicators are supposed to avoid since you still have to have sector dominance to properly HTT if spiking is on the table, which it is with mini3.

IMO the power boost is a bad gameplay move. It cheapens the effort people have put into playing this game well. It might seem like an "equalizer" but it isn't. I would estimate that I'm about 55-45 with Terran in hvy ints. Give him a lead indicator and it's like 20-80. Give us both indicators and it's like 50-50. Target acquisition in the face of lead indicators and trying to find an opportunity to get in and have any effect is miserable. They do end the game because as soon as leads are up for the enemy, I'm far more inclined to resign than fight it out. To me, this is not good. Object which grant leads must, to my mind, be eminently spike-able. I think spikeable HTTs are a problem for the game. Therefore I don't like leads on HTTs. I also think leads provide such an enormous one-side advantage, it's in some cases BETTER than hvy int vs int. I think I would honestly rather face Terran's hvy int in my regular int than him in a regular int with a lead indicator.

My proposed fix is this: go back to nan-trains. Nan trains are, to me, very fun. I love moving around in space in an attempt to buy time for my gunners to get there. I love, love, LOVE xnanning. There's nothing more satisfying than watching the enemy team desperately fail to kill a nan because I happened to be watching for that @#(!. I think nan-trains could be more viable if the damage on miniguns went down so that the nans had a) more time to xnan and b) didn't have to worry so much about spikes. I'd also like to see dumbfires reigned in a bit for the same reasons, and maybe make shields more resistant to AC fire. The gameplay of "stfn" is actually a HUGE part of what Allegiance is about: pilots with separate roles and skill coming together. Dome knows how to avoid incoming dumbfires and proxes. Terran and Vogue know how to acquire targets and hit them. Thallium, Wizard, and myself know how to ram a bomber, crossnan, and keep our momentum going to avoid the enemy ints and trick them into overboosting. That we come together as a team to bomb a base? *That's* Allegiance. If it was just "all get guns and shoot at the enemy" (which is what leads give us) then I feel like we become just quake in space.



Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) *
But I don't read the forums I only post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Papsmear
post Jul 1 2018, 10:58 AM
Post #3



Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 5,229
Joined: 6-July 03
From: Toronto, Canada

Squad: The System X / @XEXY



I tend to agree with P! that lead indicators are a huge advantage for the offensive team.

I saw a commander do it once who really understood the lead indicator advantage, which IMHO is an easy and viable defensive maneuver, the defending commander launched a solo at the base that was going to be bombed, which also gave his team lead indicators.

The offensive bomb run was wiped out quickly. I wish I could remember who that commander was, as it was a brilliant, yet cheap and simple maneuver.

Have you considered rather than nerfing weapons, just make it take more kills to increase a player's kill bonus?






Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phoenix1
post Jul 1 2018, 01:03 PM
Post #4



Group Icon

Group: Moderator
Posts: 5,202
Joined: 13-July 08
From: Over the Rainbow

Squad: System X



code change.



Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) *
But I don't read the forums I only post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Papsmear
post Jul 1 2018, 01:49 PM
Post #5



Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 5,229
Joined: 6-July 03
From: Toronto, Canada

Squad: The System X / @XEXY



I had a feeling that was the case.
Then tweak away with core changes smile.gif



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LANS
post Jul 1 2018, 06:44 PM
Post #6





Group: Community Member
Posts: 1,017
Joined: 24-February 10
From: Toronto, Canada




QUOTE (Papsmear @ Jul 1 2018, 11:58 AM) *
Have you considered rather than nerfing weapons, just make it take more kills to increase a player's kill bonus?


I'm happy to do that, but it will get me tarred and feathered by half the remaining community.

I'm a fan of just removing leads altogether - that's a core change, and not a massive effort to post a core where all lead indicators are disabled.


Edit: I can't really do it, because for some reason I can't run server debug builds on my computer, even if I'm running a lobby server too, so I can't test any server-side code changes. Haven't quite figued out why yet.

This post has been edited by LANS: Jul 1 2018, 06:46 PM


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phoenix1
post Jul 1 2018, 10:33 PM
Post #7



Group Icon

Group: Moderator
Posts: 5,202
Joined: 13-July 08
From: Over the Rainbow

Squad: System X



Ryu brought up a point in discord I want to address immediately. He wondered why, if I'm so opposed to stalemates in allegiance, am I against lead indicators on HTTs/HvyBbrs. The answer is this:

I think this cure has proven worse than the disease.



Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) *
But I don't read the forums I only post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Terran
post Jul 7 2018, 12:40 PM
Post #8





Group: Community Member
Posts: 2,722
Joined: 20-February 05
From: Ottawa

Squad: SysX



what's all the beef against stalemates anyway? i like a good long game with lots of kills.


QUOTE (JimmyNighthawk @ May 5 2012, 03:38 AM) *
,.zZ²³

Pika pika.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phoenix1
post Jul 7 2018, 10:23 PM
Post #9



Group Icon

Group: Moderator
Posts: 5,202
Joined: 13-July 08
From: Over the Rainbow

Squad: System X



As the game goes long it really disproportionately favors those skilled in aiming. In the early game and mid game there's a lot for people who aren't good at aiming to do, things that matter. But in long games, things tend to deteriorate into slugfests. If one team goes ints and the other figs, a stalemate on the last base of the game can last for hours with even just a little bit of stack.

I agree that I enjoy the int v int slugfests that often develope, but I also have to recognize that a big part of the reason I like those games is because I end up with gaudy 50-3 KDAs and .8 kpms. It has been communicated that this is in some people's minds this is the reason newbies are quitting. And having lived on the side of defending against three to five competent enemy ints by myself and maybe with sumv, it gets old.

Besides, if I'm being honest with myself, I have more fun when I get to fly a GT scout than when I get to fly mini2 ints.

This post has been edited by phoenix1: Jul 7 2018, 10:24 PM



Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) *
But I don't read the forums I only post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 3rd December 2020 - 12:31 PM
Bridged By IpbWiki: Integration Of Invision Power Board and MediaWiki © GlobalSoft