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Sheriff Metz
post Feb 20 2018, 02:19 AM
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Built from PCore 15 since it's the current active core. Here's hoping I didn't botch anything on my first core release (but hey p1 has botched every release so the bar is set pretty low amirite)

Floating Treasures have been limited to Emp Mine 1, EW Dis 2, EWS Probe 2, LRM Aleph Res 1, Retro Booster, SRM Seismic,
Powerups (double spawn chance 120 from 60), and Cash (increased to 700 (500) but with half the spawn chance (15 from 30))


Belters He3Yield modifier reduced 1.1 (1.25)
Belters fighters mass reduced 40 (52), Hvy Int/int mass reduced 30(35), ADV sf/sf mass reduced 80(90)

Bios research time modifier reduced from 5 to 4.5 (resulting in 9 minute research)
Research cost modifier increased from .5 to .6

all tiers of Fighters (non belters and tf) mass change reverted back to 30 (36) (only reverting the mass change from PCore 15, fuel and sidethrust changes remain the same)
Adv, enh, std fig ripcord time reduced 7 (8.5), 8 (9), 9 (10)
Dumbfire 1, 2, 3, and Quickload variants modified - Launch Velocity 10 (25), acceleration 200 (100)
Seeker 1,2 and quickload variants lock time improved to match Seeker 3 - 1 (2.66), 1 (1.5)- [seeker 3 still has a longer range and more damage than 1 and 2 and a wider lock radius (as does seeker 2 over seeker 1 have better dmg and lock radius ]
Quickfire 1, 2, and 3 damage reduced to 30 (40), 35 (40) 40 (45)
Minepack 1 and 2 damage reduced to 500 (700), 700 (900)

Aleph res 1 2 and 3 are now 1-sided.
SRM AB 1, 2, 3 reload time increased 4.5 (4), 4.5 (4), 4 (3.5)
Nanite 1 2 and 3 projectile speed increased 600 (400) (increases their maximum range since they move faster throughout their (1) second lifespan)
Nan 1 repair rate improved to -25 (-22.5)

Light stealth fighters, Stealth Fighters and Adv Stealth Fighters energy increased 2200 (1800), 2800 (2400), 3000 (2400)
Sniper 1 and 2 projectile lifespan increased .9 (.7), 1 (.8) (increases maximum range) and damage increased 4 (3.5), 5 (4.5)
LRM Hunter 1, 2, and 3 damage reduced to 100 (120), 110 (120), 120(144)
Utl Cannon 1 2 and 3 damage reduced to 4 (4.8), 4.5 (5.2), 5 (6.5)

Interceptor, and Heavy interceptor fuel increased 16 (14), 18 (15)
TF Light Interceptor, Std Interceptor, and Hvy Interceptor energy increased to 1500 (1200)
PE/PW 1/2/3 Minigun ammo usage increased 1.15 (1)
Prox mine 1 2 and 3 damage reduced to 300 (400), 400 (500), 500 (600)

Miners, Enh Miners, and Adv miners have had their HP increased to 1200 (1056), 1600 (1320), 2000 (1500)
small Std, Enh, and Adv constructors have had their HP increased 1700 (1440), 2000 (1800), 2500 (2250)
Large constructors now relay lead indicator

PW/PE Skycap AoE Radius reduced to 5 (10)

Lifepod HP increased 50 (25)
Lifepod endurance reduced 100 (300)

Starting money reduced 14000 (16000)
Total money reduced 50000 (72000)

I will yet do a lot of reworking of bios and SY but thought this was enough for the moment

//

Hotfix - (sending to blacksun now will probably take a day or two to go live)

Pod endurance increased from 100 to 200 (was originally 300)
Cashboxes are now actually 700 now
Prosperity win condition money reverted to 72000
Total He3 reduced to 1300 (1500)
SRM Dumbfire 1, 2, 3, and QL variant lifespan reduced to 3 (4), 3.5 (4.5), 3.5 (4.5)

This post has been edited by Sheriff Metz: Feb 24 2018, 10:12 PM


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Saudade
post Feb 20 2018, 02:47 AM
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good notes I like most of the things
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DontHazeMeBro
post Feb 20 2018, 02:50 AM
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#bringbackDN


QUOTE (NakPPI@XT @ Oct 7 2008, 03:50 PM) *
I didn't log in to allegiance to be taunted by some keyboard warrior that gets off by bragging about the size of his nuts in a 10 year old video game
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Vortrog
post Feb 20 2018, 04:20 AM
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All hail greenrecticlecore

Missiles and prox are for pussies (oh, and so are scouts but dont tell their pilots as that will mean less kb for the core faithful)

mad.gif

To avoid confusion on my sarcasm, the prox nerfs are unjust and will mean a couple of factions can ignore being podded on prox. God help anyone trying to stop a capship from being stupid
Dont reward stupidity and make pilots dumber by nerfing prox!

This post has been edited by Vortrog: Feb 20 2018, 04:38 AM


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Radulfr
post Feb 20 2018, 06:12 AM
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Sounds good, although I did like the treasure hunting idea.

Also a very readable change log, unlike some thumbsup.gif
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Sheriff Metz
post Feb 21 2018, 12:56 PM
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The only RNG factor I can really accept (mostly due to how integral it is in how we've always played the game) which is a HUGE uncontrollable variable in and of itself (without putting all 3 tech rocks in every sector or making every tech base buildable on any tech rock). It serves a good purpose because it prevents comms from going the same tech EVERY game and putting the tech base in the same sector of the map EVERY game. that would be really lame.

If you want tech that changes the outcome of the game you should have to buy it - not find it magically floating out in space. I do appreciate the "fun" factor of floating treasures which is why I left some that aren't particularly game changing, and cashboxes and powerups even though they don't really make any sense either. At least with this we don't have to try to explain to noobs when and where and under what lunar phase it's worth picking up x y z tech - which really takes experience that they don't have yet. also it's just been absurd how belters - which already had gotten way more money than it needs for things - could just pick up all the tech it needs straight away because it's floating.

with halving the spawn rate of them, cashboxes are highly unlikely to cluster like 4 at a time (it's ridiculous to have 4k cash floating in space in the same location - that's a free miner) but now they're worth more per cashbox so more worth going out of your way to pick up. and more powerups. because they're fun and not really game breaking either.

also with miners and cons being stronger, sfs being reworked so that you can't solo a miner in 3 seconds flat in the early game, miners should stay alive better and if you lose them, you shouldn't be able to go trololol out in space picking up a cluster of cash and immediately build another miner



I'll be pushing a second release pretty quickly that will surely fine tune some of the numbers I've set here along with reworking Bios and SY - after this makes it onto a server and we have a chance to see its real-world performance

This post has been edited by Sheriff Metz: Feb 21 2018, 01:23 PM


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Shizoku
post Feb 22 2018, 01:05 AM
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Good stuff over all.

As much as I like proxing allephs and getting free kills, it is a good idea to nerf prox to lower the ability to turtle and slow the game down. There are more than a couple changes in this core that look like it will lower the ability to turtle, should be interesting to see if games are ended quicker now.

While I realize this is your first release and you want to change quite a lot, going forward I would urge you to limit the changes to a few and see how the balance sits. Eg: one of the previous PC cores where p1 changed literally everything about how figs flew, kind of caused a bit of chaos. Make a few tweaks to each tech path and faction as needed and see how things sit.

Good direction though, interested to see where this core goes.


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Sheriff Metz
post Feb 22 2018, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE (Shizoku @ Feb 21 2018, 10:05 PM) *
As much as I like proxing allephs and getting free kills, it is a good idea to nerf prox to lower the ability to turtle and slow the game down. There are more than a couple changes in this core that look like it will lower the ability to turtle, should be interesting to see if games are ended quicker now.

That is the point. I'm not nerfing mines for the sake of doing it for some moral qualm - god knows I love getting prox kills as much as the next @#$%@# - but the impact it has one the game when ONE scout can decimate an entire coordinated effort by the opposing team is really bad from a balance/gameplay standpoint. When we're playing games games of larger sizes/squad games it's easy to perpetually park scouts on important alephs to prolong the game...indefinitely. One of my major goals in my goal is too minimize the ability to turtle endlessly/being unable to end games.

I had planned on increasing the physical size of alephs as well for that same purpose but I have yet to find that option in ICE *shrug*

This post has been edited by Sheriff Metz: Feb 22 2018, 01:53 AM


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Vortrog
post Feb 22 2018, 03:41 AM
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its not a very good coordinated team effort if you cant kill one scout.

If its turtling you are worried about, make res stronger and one sided and moutable on htts as well. You are nerfing something that is very usefull for a lot of other things for the sake of fixing one annoying thing.
You are also reducing scout survivability. Its bad enough to fly a scout most times without knowing even your escape ticket now isnt reliable. Let alone your bomber shield of prox. Or red door camp.



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Saudade
post Feb 22 2018, 07:46 AM
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Just relax Vort you'll still be able to kill noobs that boost after you at full speed
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Saudade
post Feb 22 2018, 07:47 AM
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While going through the aleph slowly you should not be taking the damage that you are taking at the moment though so I approve of this change
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vogue
post Feb 22 2018, 07:48 AM
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Some of these changes seem good, others seem awful ó either way, Iím down to play a few games and see what happens. Hopefully youíll have the good sense to fix the @#(!, otherwise Iíll have to deal with your incessant whining when people go back to pcore.


QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 5 2013, 08:35 PM) *
Vogue is clearly #1 and commanding against him feels like commanding against Spideycw at times... though he lacks that little bit of "I don't care who's on my team or what the factions are, it's going to be a stomp anyways" that Spidey managed to pull off in his heyday.
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Sheriff Metz
post Feb 22 2018, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Vortrog @ Feb 22 2018, 12:41 AM) *
its not a very good coordinated team effort if you cant kill one scout.

You don't know what you're talking about. All it takes is one scout hanging out at the important aleph eyeing the enemy sector and then dumping all his prox on the aleph as the bomber is getting close, and he doesn't even need to actually kill anybody - if the enemy is eyed they will expect prox on the aleph and go slow, and the time lost in slowing down to try to minimize mine damage coming through the aleph is the time needed for the team to assemble and defend, thereby making said run impossible.

this dependency on "yeah we just need to get an uneyed run and we can end the game" is absurd because in any decent sized game even if you are proactively deprobing AT ALL TIMES throughout the game it's easy for anyone with any game knowledge to pop their scout into the important sector for a quick eye, or just park their scout in that sector indefinitely. it happens ALL THE TIME. That was one of Grav's favorite things to do was pick an RT or two and they were commissioned to just sit in enemy sectors eyeing @#(! for the entire duration of the game. and there's no way to beat that if victory is dependent on managing to get uneyed run through one particular aleph - which is often what the game comes down to.

aleph res being one sided may be enough on its own. it's ridiculous that they have been 2 sided, really, because it made them mostly useless for anything but capships whose large shield can actually eat that damage.
I would consider aleph res on HTTs but I don't really think exp needs that. They will have hvy ints, they can uncamp an aleph. Especially with large cons relaying a lead indicator. push a garr con and force cap something like a man.
Sup DOES need help and that's precisely why fighter/bombers were implemented, to counteract how broken the dependency on mounting uneyed bomb runs in late game is. and even so you can prevent uneyed tp2 drops pretty easily, too.

I didn't render mines useless anyway, quit being a baby. I may end up rolling back the change in the next release, or I may change the nerf from mine damage to mine endurance instead.

and none of this addresses either how a few scouts spamming pulse probes can render SBs useless and drag out a game indefinitely, either. but i'm working on that.

This post has been edited by Sheriff Metz: Feb 22 2018, 01:23 PM


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Adaven
post Feb 22 2018, 01:25 PM
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Large cons relaying indicator is.... Interesting, but the pedant in me wonders why the built base doesn't relay as well.


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Sheriff Metz
post Feb 22 2018, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Adaven @ Feb 22 2018, 10:25 AM) *
Large cons relaying indicator is.... Interesting, but the pedant in me wonders why the built base doesn't relay as well.

Don't tempt me


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Vortrog
post Feb 22 2018, 03:15 PM
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Ill wait an see how this goes then. Can i at least ask that prox cargo mass is dropped a bit. If you are gonna take away proxís teeth then at least let the scout be burdened with less mass


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Nightflame
post Feb 22 2018, 03:49 PM
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Welp. Sleep-deprived theorycrafting time. To review when I'm saner.

Bye belts. Was nice flying ya.
2k range dumbs should be a ton of fun to play with. I approve. Seek1 being usable for starting fig factions may be nice too. Shame sup will still be dominated by qf3.
Reduced treasures and fast rips remind me of XC. No complaints.
Powerups though, are rather more fun for the top whores than people who more often come out of an engagement dead or desperately running away. Ex: It'll be harder to wear down P1/Babel/whoever with numbers if they can more easily get back to full. Powerups in general favor personal skill over teamwork, and I'm leery of tilting design in that direction, tiny as it may be.
Mine changes + aleph res -> less camping attack runs, hopefully. But. The attacking side will have to camp their own aleph to prevent a rush. Should be fun to try.
AB changes--eh. Depends on whether you think it's too easy or too hard to whack a techbase as is.
Nanite--love ya.
SF changes--I guess we'll see? I'm not sure I like the util/energy mods. The major issue is that no one sits right on miners as is, but maybe a second more will let an int boost from mid-sector? DEFINITELY going to try TF tac `gu.
Pods--Trying to reduce pod suicides on prox during an attack run? Generally approve of taking lifespan down to 100.
Skycap--Worried here. IIRC skycap had troubles with early explosions at 1k proj speed and 10m AOE, this might replicate that. Unless the premature explosions were fixed in a code change? I forget.
Starting/total money--Starting money changes will screw with early faction balance, even if people default to high money. Might not be a bad thing, but will be notable. Total--similar comment. Also. The setting you changed is required money for prosperity wins. I am moderately concerned that it was not obvious that the number 72000 has no relation to total money in a game. It's $120k of he3 per side at normal levels.

Other comments:
QUOTE
cashboxes are highly unlikely to cluster like 4 at a time (it's ridiculous to have 4k cash floating in space in the same location - that's a free miner)

4 x $500 = $2000 != $4000 != miner
Also, the cash changes in the log aren't in the core you posted on discord.
QUOTE
I had planned on increasing the physical size of alephs as well for that same purpose but I have yet to find that option in ICE *shrug*

Does not exist in ICE.
QUOTE
and none of this addresses either how a few scouts spamming pulse probes can render SBs useless and drag out a game indefinitely, either. but i'm working on that.

Scouts haven't been able to mount pp for years....

Core design thing: Aleph res and tech con pushes take significant amounts of money. I always thought spending money to attack was poor design. If you fail, you have nothing to do but camp while getting more.

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Sheriff Metz
post Feb 22 2018, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Nightflame @ Feb 22 2018, 12:49 PM) *
Bye belts. Was nice flying ya.

What?
QUOTE
Shame sup will still be dominated by qf3.

It's been nerfed twice in the past 2 weeks?
QUOTE
Powerups though, are rather more fun for the top whores than people who more often come out of an engagement dead or desperately running away. Ex: It'll be harder to wear down P1/Babel/whoever with numbers if they can more easily get back to full. Powerups in general favor personal skill over teamwork, and I'm leery of tilting design in that direction, tiny as it may be.

Who cares, no need to chase someone off the map while they run around picking up powerups. that's not a productive use of time. Plus disincentivizing the most competitive players from playing is a major reason why games die. incentivizing them is great, especially if it doesn't have a large impact on the actual outcome of a game.
QUOTE
AB changes--eh. Depends on whether you think it's too easy or too hard to whack a techbase as is.

It's already been much too easy too kill a small base if you get in the sector and now i'm making it much easier to get into a sector. you should have to keep a bomber alive for more than 5 seconds upon entering a sector before being able to spam 3 abs quickly and having a base die after the bomber is dead. also I buffed nan1 and nanite max range?
QUOTE
Pods--Trying to reduce pod suicides on prox during an attack run? Generally approve of taking lifespan down to 100.

moreover trying to make it slightly more difficult to pk on accident upon killing someone. but it's fine if it's more difficult to pk yourself on prox being that I cut max float time in half anyway.
QUOTE
Skycap--Worried here. IIRC skycap had troubles with early explosions at 1k proj speed and 10m AOE, this might replicate that. Unless the premature explosions were fixed in a code change? I forget.

only one way to find out
QUOTE
Starting/total money--Starting money changes will screw with early faction balance, even if people default to high money. Might not be a bad thing, but will be notable. Total--similar comment. Also. The setting you changed is required money for prosperity wins. I am moderately concerned that it was not obvious that the number 72000 has no relation to total money in a game. It's $120k of he3 per side at normal levels.

Literally any money setting anybody ever plays on ever will "screw with early faction balance". Any time a different money setting is picked, it affects the balance. and there's like 5 people in the community that will need to make note if it if they want to know exactly how every credit shakes out in the beginning of the game. What the hell is a prosperity win? That's not part of any game mode that I can find. Starting money and Total money are next to each other in ICE just like they are in the game settings. It SHOULD affect the maximum amount of he3 on the map.

QUOTE
Other comments:

4 x $500 = $2000 != $4000 != miner
Also, the cash changes in the log aren't in the core you posted on discord.

And neither is everything in here the same as it was in the discord discussion that I had literally with myself
It's an exaggeration. 1 payday + 4 cashboxes into a miner and then 2 more paydays in 2 minutes as miner builds? that's basically a miner.
QUOTE
Scouts haven't been able to mount pp for years....

Guess that worked itself out while i was banned, then. sort of. except it's the same problem with ints you can just fill their cargo with pps since they don't need extra fuel and ammo when pulsing out sbs at their own base/aleph.

QUOTE
Core design thing: Aleph res and tech con pushes take significant amounts of money. I always thought spending money to attack was poor design. If you fail, you have nothing to do but camp while getting more.

You should be able to win if you have the money. That's the point. I've buffed con push viability drastically between mine nerfs and cons buffs, and made aleph res useful for the first time. I'm not sure what your point is here.

This post has been edited by Sheriff Metz: Feb 22 2018, 10:19 PM


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phoenix1
post Feb 22 2018, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Feb 22 2018, 07:05 PM) *
Literally any money setting anybody ever plays on ever will "screw with early faction balance". Any time a different money setting is picked, it affects the balance. and there's like 5 people in the community that will need to make note if it if they want to know exactly how every credit shakes out in the beginning of the game. What the hell is a prosperity win? That's not part of any game mode that I can find. Starting money and Total money are next to each other in ICE just like they are in the game settings. It SHOULD affect the maximum amount of he3 on the map.

Yeah.



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Nightflame
post Feb 23 2018, 12:48 AM
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Not going to argue most points.
QUOTE
It's been nerfed twice in the past 2 weeks?

Seek3's in starbase. It was a prediction that this means most sup games will go for QF3 first, and seek3 belatedly, if at all.
QUOTE
Literally any money setting anybody ever plays on ever will "screw with early faction balance".

True enough, but I thought it merited a mention. And I'm one of the five. So.
QUOTE
What the hell is a prosperity win? That's not part of any game mode that I can find. Starting money and Total money are next to each other in ICE just like they are in the game settings. It SHOULD affect the maximum amount of he3 on the map.

Game settings > win conditions:
Conquest. Territorial. Prosperity. Artifact run. Flags. Required kills. Countdown.
QUOTE
Starting money and Total money are next to each other in ICE just like they are in the game settings. It SHOULD affect the maximum amount of he3 on the map.

Global 09: AmountHe3. That's the one that controls total He3 on the map.
QUOTE
Guess that worked itself out while i was banned, then. sort of. except it's the same problem with ints you can just fill their cargo with pps since they don't need extra fuel and ammo when pulsing out sbs at their own base/aleph.

PP2's also down to 3k scan range while scouts are at 2.8k. I don't disagree that PPs can lead to degenerate play, but I thought I'd point this out.
QUOTE
You should be able to win if you have the money. That's the point. I've buffed con push viability drastically between mine nerfs and cons buffs, and made aleph res useful for the first time. I'm not sure what your point is here.

Was incoherent on my part. The changes you've made are an improvement most certainly. I just prefer that it be made easier to win without pushing a 20k con, in addition to being able to win if you have tons of money, so that the game does not stall out if neither side has said tons amounts of money. More, spending money per attack discourages attacking on balance, pushing people to play more defensively.
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