This is a very disturbing article. Generally I don't really want to get back into posting about gender, etc., on this forum like I have in the past, but this story is disturbing enough that it kind of feels right to spread the word about it a bit. This is the kind of thing you'd expect to read about some place in Saudi Arabia or Iran (actually, Iran would be a bad example, though its views on gender are still horrible) or something, not New York City. (Allright, realistically in an ultra-conservative country like that all the victims described in this article would probably just be dead right now, without anyone speaking a word about it... But you know what I mean). Also it's pretty clear from the article that there must be a fairly large number of police officers who act this way, considering that there's a number of different complaints involved (and I'm sure not all incidents like this get reported in the first place) and considering that it wasn't just one or two officers involved in each incident, but large numbers banding together -- this is clearly not just a small number of bad apples here and there.
And honestly I think this probably should not be surprising, though incredibly sad and incredibly disturbing. Basically, it probably wouldn't be hard to find a group of ignorant and/or intolerant people in New York or any other city anywhere in the world (including Toronto) who'd be more than happy to get together and point and laugh, throw abuse and hate in the direction of the nearest trans person, or anyone who doesn't fit into gender roles properly; now give this group some power, like the power to detain people and chain them up, and the more-or-less justified belief that they have a good chance of getting away with it... Add a bit of Groupthink... Make sure there's no guidelines or properly enforced rules or regulations to keep them in line... And yeah, it's pretty easy to see how you get something like this, over and over again...
And incidentally, I think this is why you need to address hate crimes as a special category of crime, complaints about the evils of political correctness notwithstanding. These people were assaulted because they are trans, not just for some random reason. I hope all the officers involved face extremely severe repercussions to make it clear that this sort of thing is not acceptable.
... I wouldn't be particularly surprised if they all get away with a slap on the wrist or something, though, probably with the exception of a couple of scapegoats.
Also extremely sad for all the victims -- the publicity resulting from these suits will doubtlessly result in them getting a lot more negative attention from a lot more intolerant people.
Yeah, it's extremely easy to see how this can lead to, or aggravate, PTSD or suicidal tendencies, which trans people suffer from a lot to begin with, and I hope (... optimistically) this is taken into consideration when those officers found to be involved get sentenced.
Horrible story about the NYPD
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NightRychune
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Yup justice has abandoned us for the most part, gotta make it when you want it nowadays.
I'll say though that this saddens me more than most things I hear about these days, and that's saying quite a bit.
I'll say though that this saddens me more than most things I hear about these days, and that's saying quite a bit.
Last edited by DasSmiter on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
No special treatment should be given to any particular segment of the population for any reason what-so-ever. Doing so allows for more government sponsored "special classes" of people which fuels resentment.girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Feb 2 2012, 07:31 PM) And incidentally, I think this is why you need to address hate crimes as a special category of crime, complaints about the evils of political correctness notwithstanding. These people were assaulted because they are trans, not just for some random reason. I hope all the officers involved face extremely severe repercussions to make it clear that this sort of thing is not acceptable.
The existing law provides proper recourse for these horrific acts and the media brings these stories to light fueling public sentiment which, over time, leads to a change in the public attitude.
Taking the short route through government legislation just pisses everyone else off and provides one class of people with protected class status, which is unjustifiable and undesirable in a nation that follows the rule of law.
Also, who the hell chains someone to a fence for 28 hours with one of their arms over their head!? Thats just cruel and unusual punishment, which is fortunately protected against by the Constitution.
Also <insert Camaro rant about large cities being evil here>
Last edited by Camaro on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
^ I think I can understand the logic behind the argument you make (especially the worry that special treatment may just lead to more resentment, I guess), but to me the key fact seems to be that these people are already treated as a "special segment of the population" in a very negative sense. They're the special segment of the population that significant numbers of people seem to think it's okay to chain to a fence for 28 hours. I think to ignore the fact that trans people are already treated differently from cisgendered people is counter-productive. Yes, there are laws to protect anyone against this abusive treatment, but it's a simple fact that some groups of people will face this sort of treatment far more frequently than other groups, and frankly, there will be not-insignificant numbers of people who will be okay with some groups of people being treated this way, but not other groups. I think this should be recognized and dealt with.
I believe that to some extent at least, treating everyone exactly the same makes sense mostly if everyone starts on a more-or-less level playing field, and this is clearly not the case, so I think there is a strong case to be made for some groups of people getting special consideration and protection. The hope would be that at some point in the future the world would become a slightly more just place, and then that special consideration will no longer be needed, and could be removed -- but we're a long way from that point.
But anyway, there's lots and lots of potential for a political debate here, but I guess this is one of those stories where maybe the important thing is just that everyone agrees that it's horrible, even if people disagree on how exactly the wider issue should be addressed. This may seem like it goes without saying, but, well, there's obviously some people out there in the world who don't think this is horrible, or obviously it wouldn't have happened in the first place...
I believe that to some extent at least, treating everyone exactly the same makes sense mostly if everyone starts on a more-or-less level playing field, and this is clearly not the case, so I think there is a strong case to be made for some groups of people getting special consideration and protection. The hope would be that at some point in the future the world would become a slightly more just place, and then that special consideration will no longer be needed, and could be removed -- but we're a long way from that point.
But anyway, there's lots and lots of potential for a political debate here, but I guess this is one of those stories where maybe the important thing is just that everyone agrees that it's horrible, even if people disagree on how exactly the wider issue should be addressed. This may seem like it goes without saying, but, well, there's obviously some people out there in the world who don't think this is horrible, or obviously it wouldn't have happened in the first place...
Last edited by Makida on Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
When government sanctions one protected class (or favored class), you can be sure that other groups will lobby for their protected class status as well. It is not a good road to go down. Do enough of it and you end up with class warfare.girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Feb 2 2012, 08:59 PM) I believe that to some extent at least, treating everyone exactly the same makes sense mostly if everyone starts on a more-or-less level playing field, and this is clearly not the case, so I think there is a strong case to be made for some groups of people getting special consideration and protection. The hope would be that at some point in the future the world would become a slightly more just place, and then that special consideration will no longer be needed, and could be removed -- but we're a long way from that point.
The better road to go down is to raise awareness through grass-roots organizing and bring people around to your side. Yes it is a slow and painful process, but the end result is one of far less animosity than lobbying the government to lay down special laws - which, believe me, really pisses off a lot of people who otherwise don't really care who you are or what you believe in so long as you don't bother them.
Nerdy kids are unfairly picked out many times by other children. Do you think there should be special hate laws to protect against this? I don't. To give someone favorable treatment by the powers that be does little more than provoke the people who already don't like you to like you even less and thus carry out even worse actions. To keep using my illustrative case of the nerdy kids, lets say a kid is being picked on unfairly cause he is a bit nerdy... so he runs off to the principle or whoever who lays down the law with the other kids (effectively making the nerdy kid have a special protected class) does this make the teasing or bullying stop? HELL NO, it makes it worse because now those kids are pissed off that the nerdy kid is getting special treatment and they now have to be dealt with by force (which in turn makes them resent the nerdy kid even that much more).
So no, I believe that the better course to change the public attitude through a grass-roots campaign, not through the heavy hand of government. There are already laws in place to protect against these kinds of atrocities. Those laws should be enforced to the fullest extent to protect the liberties of the people of this country. No special laws should be created that favor one class over another, that is not the rule of law, that is the tyranny of the minority.
Anyways, this isn't to detract from the horrible story you posted. I cannot imagine how any person can do this to another person. I will leave my politics out of this thread hereafter, but I do fear that we do nothing more than repeat the mistakes of our forefathers generation after generation and never seem to learn from our mistakes.
Treating any group of people differently (even with the best intentions) only breeds more discrimination and hate.
Which is why Affirmative Action and such @#(! is dumb as $#@!.
We pretend to be a non-racist society by treating some people as lesser people by holding them to a lower standard.
Brilliant.
Which is why Affirmative Action and such @#(! is dumb as $#@!.
We pretend to be a non-racist society by treating some people as lesser people by holding them to a lower standard.
Brilliant.
There's a new sheriff in town.
You guys do realize that this is all from the account of the person suing, right? There are two sides to every story. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but you should really hear both sides of what happened before you start taking sides. Not saying it didn't happen exactly how this person said, but perhaps the cop would come out and say that she was fighting, violent, and uncontrollable, and the only way they could stop her from banging her head against the door was to chain her to a pipe. Maybe, maybe not, but your guess is as good as mine when only hearing 1 side of the tale. I'm just sayin'. It'll make her case a lot easier to win if she is the victim of an atrocity rather than a minor run-in with the cops.
edit:
And before you guys go off on me, I'm guessing that the cops did act like @#$%@#s towards her. There are bad apples out there in every profession, police work included. But to what degree is still open for debate IMO. Innocent until proven guilty and all that (if anybody truly believes that anymore).
edit:
And before you guys go off on me, I'm guessing that the cops did act like @#$%@#s towards her. There are bad apples out there in every profession, police work included. But to what degree is still open for debate IMO. Innocent until proven guilty and all that (if anybody truly believes that anymore).
Last edited by Bacon_00 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Leave Bacon alone. When he's unsure of what sector he's in somehow it works out better." -Lee
That's stupid. Firstly, this is not the only law suit about this issue the article mentions. Secondly, yeah, I'm sure transgendered people would love to put themselves out there publicly in a controversial lawsuit, because that'd make their lives so much more pleasant and simple. Thirdly, because this sort of thing does happen. I've seen this kind of hatefulness, and it's incredibly easy to imagine what would happen when you combine it with the right to use force. Yeah, it's so incredibly hard to believe that transgendered people are treated badly! Cuz, you know, we live in an egalitarian gender-blind utopia here!
Oh, also, because what kind of situation would possibly make it justifiable to chain someone to a pipe for 28 hours? I mean seriously, what the hell are you talking about? This one person violently resisted several police officers because they got her on a minor subway violation that barely merits a slap on the wrist, and the only way the entire police station could find to deal with her is to chain her to a pipe for 28 $#@!ing hours? What the hell? Yeah, I'm not sure you're playing devil's advocate here. You're playing "let's see how wilfully blind to the facts I have to be to make it believable that the police didn't do anything wrong!"
And what's with the stupid victim blaming? Because that's what this is.
And no, this is not a case of "a few bad apples." In order for this thing to have happened, it'd have to be a lot of police officers standing around doing nothing to stop it at a bare minimum. And it happened several times. This means it's a problem with the whole system, involving many officers, and trying to make excuses by claiming it's just a few bad apples is wrong.
Also, not that anyone cares, but still: My respect for you has just dropped about a hundred points.
Yes, innocent until proven guilty. I'm sure it's possible there are a few innocent police officers who didn't know what was going on and got mixed into the mess, and I hope they are shown to be innocent just as I hope those actually responsible are shown to be guilty. But the possibility that this was all some innocent misunderstanding that someone's trying to use to make the police look bad is incredibly unlikely. And even if this case is dismissed, the other cases the article mentions would still be left.
Hey, if it turns out New York City is actually an utopia where the police never ever abuse trans people, I'll be very happy to hear it. What's more likely though is that this abuse does happen, and people will try to gloss it over and find ways for those responsible to get off with a slap on the wrist.
Oh, also, because what kind of situation would possibly make it justifiable to chain someone to a pipe for 28 hours? I mean seriously, what the hell are you talking about? This one person violently resisted several police officers because they got her on a minor subway violation that barely merits a slap on the wrist, and the only way the entire police station could find to deal with her is to chain her to a pipe for 28 $#@!ing hours? What the hell? Yeah, I'm not sure you're playing devil's advocate here. You're playing "let's see how wilfully blind to the facts I have to be to make it believable that the police didn't do anything wrong!"
And what's with the stupid victim blaming? Because that's what this is.
And no, this is not a case of "a few bad apples." In order for this thing to have happened, it'd have to be a lot of police officers standing around doing nothing to stop it at a bare minimum. And it happened several times. This means it's a problem with the whole system, involving many officers, and trying to make excuses by claiming it's just a few bad apples is wrong.
Also, not that anyone cares, but still: My respect for you has just dropped about a hundred points.
Yes, innocent until proven guilty. I'm sure it's possible there are a few innocent police officers who didn't know what was going on and got mixed into the mess, and I hope they are shown to be innocent just as I hope those actually responsible are shown to be guilty. But the possibility that this was all some innocent misunderstanding that someone's trying to use to make the police look bad is incredibly unlikely. And even if this case is dismissed, the other cases the article mentions would still be left.
Hey, if it turns out New York City is actually an utopia where the police never ever abuse trans people, I'll be very happy to hear it. What's more likely though is that this abuse does happen, and people will try to gloss it over and find ways for those responsible to get off with a slap on the wrist.
Last edited by Makida on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.