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Bacon,

I've said all along if it doesn't work we'll find something else.

I've even recently said that we can eventually bring both types of systems, use one for balance and the other individual statistics.

Again, I've said all along that I don't want to throw out ELO until it's had a chance to actually work in the environment for which it was designed - an environment in which players cannot artificially stack the sides to ensure success.

So, calm down, wait it out. In the end I'm not sure what the giant ruckus is anyway... ELO is there so that we can implement a balancing system around it. Please let us finish the job before you declare it broken / flawed / hopeless.

Feel pissed off if you must, but people who want "the old stats back" are getting little more than kills = rank. Until such time as events are added which allow us to capture actions which are currently missed, score will always be one-sided and never a measure of player skill, only dogfighting.

EDIT: Spoke prematurely and I don't want to create conflict. Please ignore this post.

Edit: It dosent matter what u say any way. Who cares. Fork this and start over.

Zap

Pook wrote:QUOTE (Pook @ Nov 6 2006, 08:13 PM) Bacon,

I've said all along if it doesn't work we'll find something else.

I've even recently said that we can eventually bring both types of systems, use one for balance and the other individual statistics.

Again, I've said all along that I don't want to throw out ELO until it's had a chance to actually work in the environment for which it was designed - an environment in which players cannot artificially stack the sides to ensure success.

So, calm down, wait it out. In the end I'm not sure what the giant ruckus is anyway... ELO is there so that we can implement a balancing system around it. Please let us finish the job before you declare it broken / flawed / hopeless.

Feel pissed off if you must, but people who want "the old stats back" are getting little more than kills = rank. Until such time as events are added which allow us to capture actions which are currently missed, score will always be one-sided and never a measure of player skill, only dogfighting.

OK, thanks Pook. That's the kind of reply I was looking for, not a pseudo-joke of changing stats to be kills = rank... I felt a bit mocked =)

I'm done, though... All's I really wanted was that exact reply, so I'm happy.

If it's any consolation I don't think that it was aimed specifically at you Bacon, more at the many many many threads we've had like this over the last few months.

As for your worry of ELO not treating people as individuals remember that, whilst ELO treats each team as a discrete unit, each player will have a unique set of teams that they were on. So each player will be treated individually by the system as a whole, if not by any individual game. ELO is a statistical system that works by taking data from multiple sources so if you get stuck on a crappy team then it'll just be a one off blip compared to all the other games. Unless you always end up on a crappy team in which case you need to start wondering if you're what makes them crappy.

hardyboy wrote:QUOTE (hardyboy @ Nov 6 2006, 10:01 PM) Hi all!

I'm new here, though I'm one of those players that created an account, played a few matches, left for an extended period, than came back rank 15. (However, I do think that I play a bit better than your average newbie.)

I don't want to complicate things, but I have a (hopefully) unique idea for scoring. Why don't we use Z-Scores? Have a bunch of different stats that you total during a game, determine a player's z-score in each category compared to his team, and then add all of a player's z-scores together? If a player did worse then average, he will get a negative; better than average will gain you a positive.

MrChaos' SRSRS #2 & #5

Hardyboy

Im giving you a longer reply since I don't want to make you think this is a personal attack. Being new to these forums Im unclear if you are aware of the hornets nest you've poked with a stick. I wasnt when I volunteered to help a few months back on the very same issue. The loving I received was really quite nice! [ sarcasm ] Ive kept in the background but the amount of misinformation is making my stomach hurt.

I don't pretend to be a stats guru just someone trained in it's use and who works with it in RL. I KNOW we got PhDs, certified genuis', and those who are fully capable of raising above my level of competence in statistical modeling simply by taking the time to learn it. The key point to everyone is spending a few minutes/afternoons crawling the internet isnt sufficient. You're going to need to get your hands dirty running some equations, asking some questions, building some models etc.

This article is nothing more then the most fundmental explaination of performing a statistical analysis. One and two tailed testing, Null hypothesis, etc. Anyone who's taken an undergrad statistics class will immediately recognize it.

The #2 is definitely earned but the #5 is my guessing at your abilities. In all sincerity Im glad to see you interested in and approaching this from a rational point of view. Statistical based ranking systems are the only way to go and this we agree completely since a STRICTLY points based ranking leads to games being played for points at the expense of wins.

Please note for those who are rushing to write me love letters on points based ranks what I think you want to advocate is a linear approximation algorithm which changes over time based on player behavior. What you are really advocating is the individual's game actions being used to rank them. An important distinction tbs and yeoman like endeavour IMHO. Squeeking about points alone is a bad idea. Trust me would I lie to you /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

/wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":iluv:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" /> you all

MrChaos <--- Yes this is the same guy /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":lol:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />


Edit added: Errrr hardyboy your not a newbie /doh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doh:" border="0" alt="doh.gif" /> . Should have checked the date and Im guessing I know the author as somone else too.

2nd edit: After a nice PM from hardy Ive been corrected in that he is a very new player. Also Im very impressed by his PM and putting him on the watch list for being the real deal.