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Europe's Maquina Infernal has crippled Spain
Spain is spiralling into the vortex of debt-deflation. This has nothing to do with Greece. It is not the result of fiscal extravagance over the past decade, or other such Wagnerian myths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment...pled-Spain.html

Pass me a Paella Votrog..

Camaro wrote:QUOTE (Camaro @ May 30 2012, 12:05 AM) Monetary supply, while rarely at the forefront of politics, is an extremely powerful factor in both the economic and political well-being of a nation. To surrender sovereignty to a bloc on such an important element of a nation is beyond my comprehension.

As to TC, the ECB should not be like the Fed. The Fed acts as a central bank to only two nations (United States, and defacto Panama). Since Panama has no real central bank and its only currency is imported dollars (that it gets via exports), it isn't really comparable to a bloc central bank like the ECB whose fiduciary duty is to maintain the Euro... not baby its member states. That being said, it has failed on its duty just as the Fed has failed its duty and pretty much every central bank in existence.

That's why there is either more europe, like a USA of Europe.. or all revert to their national currencies

Perhaps the Northern countries can have their own Northern currency and the south/ireland can have another..... of course it's not in Germany's interests as their currency will appreciate so much their exports will be priced out of the market, after all they can source debt at near 0%!! yet their loans to Greece, Portugal etc are at a vast profit... but the German voters prefer wagnerian myths their media and politicians feed them about lazy greek, spaniards having siestas etc

You are so massively bitter about this.

I still don't get what your actual solution would be. You seem to think the other Euro nations should just finance Greece and stop winging about it. Is that it?

I think he mentioned that his solution would be to kick Germany out of the EU.

Also I agree that this whining is stupid, and it's the part that has me most annoyed. Why should anyone give Greece money? All the Euros are doing are saying sure, we'll give you money, you just have to make these (admittedly really painful) changes. There's nothing scandalous there.

Although TC would probably argue that the greeks are in this position because of EU policies. That's ludicrous but I can see why he'd think that. Reality is that the Greeks did this to themselves, and being part of the EU just makes it harder for them to sell their children's future in order to maintain the fiction that what they are doing now is ok.

Incidentally, the good ol' USA isn't that far from this place, but we spent most of our kids futures on weapons and war. And our economy might actually still give us a chance to dig ourselves out of the hole if we're not stupid over the next couple of decades. Problem is, we are stupid.

...
curing the symptoms and not the source does only buy time but does not help.

TakingArms wrote:QUOTE (TakingArms @ May 29 2012, 08:37 PM) I think he mentioned that his solution would be to kick Germany out of the EU.

If that wasn't a joke, he's not just a populist but stone-cold crazy

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ May 30 2012, 12:41 AM) If that wasn't a joke, he's not just a populist but stone-cold crazy

Its less crazy than it sounds - without Germany, the Euro area would be a lot closer together in terms of economics, the general bentness of politicians and whatnot. The PIGS and France could all band together and elect one overly tanned elderly man who cheats on his wife with 18 year olds, rather than having eight or nine of them; Germany and the UK could then do what they should have done in 1815 and band together and create a north-sea based superstate, with terrible food forcing everyone to drink wonderful beer and which is great at war but @#(! at penalties.

Also agri notes with no surprise at all that the scourge of greek tax avoiders - Christine Lagarde - doesnt actually pay any tax herself

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/ma...rde-pays-no-tax

An Anglo-Germanic union would surely spell the doom of many a country.

Most aid to Greece circles back
http://www.telegram.com/article/20120529/NEWS/120529424/1237

Its membership in the euro currency union hanging in the balance, Greece continues to receive billions of euros in emergency assistance from a so-called troika of lenders overseeing its bailout.

But almost none of the money is going to the Greek government to pay for vital public services. Instead, it is flowing directly back into the troika’s pockets.

The European bailout of 130 billion euros ($163.4 billion) that was supposed to buy time for Greece is mainly servicing only the interest on the country’s debt — while the Greek economy continues to struggle.


“Greece will not default on the troika because the troika is paying themselves,” said Thomas Mayer, a senior adviser at Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt.

In an elaborate payment system that began after the May 6 election that brought down the Greek government and is meant to ensure that the Greeks do not touch the cash, the big three creditors are now wiring bailout payments to an escrow account in Greece. There the money sits for two or three days — before much of it is sent back to the troika as interest payments on the Greek bonds that Europe accepted under terms of the bailout deal struck in February.


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Again there are so many wagnerian myths out there such as Greece is "given" money, when the truth is all the money is doing is paying back the troika themselves and those irresponsible enough to have lent the money in the first place.. same as in Spain and Ireland... fuelling property booms on cheap credit... mind you the bailout loans are made at a 10- 20% profit...

Then Greece should exit the euro and default on it's debts. It probably needs to do that anyway.

It means saying goodbye to the illusions of prosperity though.