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Pook wrote:QUOTE (Pook @ Aug 4 2006, 02:06 AM) I find it's your attitude that is rediculous. Another case of "It doesn't bother ME - so what's wrong with YOU".

Exactly. Except you misspelled ridiculous.

Pook wrote:QUOTE (Pook @ Aug 4 2006, 03:52 AM) Won't that be a nice welcome back to our returning vets.

"Hey, I heard you guys have in-game ranks now!"
... fires up allegiance, joins a game...

"Muppet?!?"
... uninstalls Allegiance, sure that the community development is irresponsible and has ruined the game.

He won't have the rank of "muppet"... he'll have the rank of "newbie". I'm sure you're familiar with the sort of "returning vet" who quits immediately when a computer tells him that he's a newbie. It's the kind that takes twice as long to learn how to play the game than a normal newbie does.

Pook wrote:QUOTE (Pook @ Aug 4 2006, 03:59 AM) Where's the "XT Filter" when you need it?

Excellent argumentation.

Gandalf2 wrote:QUOTE (Gandalf2 @ Aug 4 2006, 04:46 AM) If one method means some people feel insulted whilst others aren't, and may even find it amusing...

and another method doesn't insult anyone....

Well, I would say which method to choose is obvious, but too many people here have egos that are too large /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

I don't see, since this is only on some servers, why Noir shouldn't be allowed to make a joke that some people find offensive. Some cores contain jokes that some people may find offensive. The whole idea of implementing a publicized ranking system that judges players will offend some people- you know that this is part of why ELO is so damned controversial.

Flower wrote:QUOTE (Flower @ Aug 4 2006, 08:09 AM) I do not think that this Discussion is trivial either.

...
Currently Voob and Noob is often used in a negative way in this community. Thus these words should be avoided, or used in a _clear_ positive context to better the image of the words :-)

If we took and removed every term ever "often used in a negative way", what would happen?

Freeza wrote:QUOTE (Freeza @ Aug 3 2006, 03:04 PM) It's hot, I work hard outside, I'm grumpy.

Anyway, I feel someone can only be offended, if they choose to be offended. The problem isn't the word used, it's the offendee's choice.

I'll play with whatever the admins decide; indifference is bliss. /mellow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mellow:" border="0" alt="mellow.gif" />

No, it is actually not that way, Freeza. It is not a matter of being offended, it is a matter of being rude. If you have a choice to not be rude or to be perceived as rude, why would you not make that choice?

Most folks think this is trivial. but it is probably symptomatic of a larger issue in Allegiance. If you want the player base to grow, you need to look at things that turn players off before they get through the steep early learning curve.

It is the little things that count. Take care of the little things (Intermediate instead of voob) and the bigger things will start taking care of themselves.

It is not a fuzzy care bear thing -- it is a good business thing. If you owned a store, would you put up a sign that referred to some of your customers in ways that they did not relish?

QUOTE Exactly. Except you misspelled ridiculous.[/quote]Oh no! A typo. I must be wrong because I made a typo.

QUOTE He won't have the rank of "muppet"... he'll have the rank of "newbie". I'm sure you're familiar with the sort of "returning vet" who quits immediately when a computer tells him that he's a newbie. It's the kind that takes twice as long to learn how to play the game than a normal newbie does.[/quote]
Well now, that depends on where the vet was when he left off now, doesn't it. If he had lost his newbie tag, then decided to come back a year later - guess what - he's a "Voob".

QUOTE Excellent argumentation.[/quote]See "Typo" above. Right back at you.

QUOTE I don't see, since this is only on some servers, why Noir shouldn't be allowed to make a joke that some people find offensive.[/quote]
What gives a server op the right to change the file at all? Humorous or not, what says they should be altering the code or input files provided them by the dev team?

Lykourgos wrote:QUOTE (Lykourgos @ Aug 4 2006, 01:40 AM) If we took and removed every term ever "often used in a negative way", what would happen?

In fact some lingual phenomenon akin to this takes place everyday,
It is called euphemism treadmill and causes once neutral or positive words to be connected to a negative meaning. (lets not forget that Idiot and Moron, were once neutral and scientific terms, then some people used them in a negative way and the treadmill began to work.)

That is why I mentioned the intention of the offender, as using a good intention is the only way this vicious cycle can be broken.
Thats why I said clear positive way, if we want to use voob we should first suceed at redeeming the word.
One cannot simply use negative words in a positive way even if one has a positive intent. For example if I were trying to flatter a girl and were to say: "You dirty BITCH!".
Then it cannot be expected that this girl would be flattered. Most likely she would be insulted.
(Of course I could explain then that a dirty bitch is in my mind a sex-positive openminded attractive young woman that does not refrain from using vulgar speech during the act to further the experienced stimuli. But without that explanation it would be an insult. And my bet is that she is still insulted after you explained.)

So if we were to give Voob a real image boost I could certainly agree on using it.
But taking into consideration that this word never had a positive meaning and was invented by veterans to designate a certain playergroup (indicating lower skill) I would not count on it gaining a positive meaning.

Pook, I DID change them back that VERY night. Usually the server/service resets on its own about once a day due to AllSrv lockups, but it would seem that the new code is more stable (crosses fingers on that). I'll manually reboot the server tonight when the players thin out for the evening, so keep your hat on.

But to be honest Pook, since the change, the response has been mostly positive. When I log on, I get more suggestions and it would seem that the majority of people online think it is even more accurate. Hell, I think I was reserved compared to some of the serious suggestions I have heard. I guess "we" are just not as accommodating as other games where almost total server customization is not only allowed, but encouraged. Meh, I should not be surprised.

Noir, I've never said you can't do whatever you want in DN. Your Core, your version of the game, etc.

Rankings are different. They're not core specific, they are community-wide. They need to be consistent and server ops should treat them as part of the server code and not as part of their core which they can alter on a whim. The rank someone sees on a Planet server should not change when they move to DN and should certainly not be different than the ones they see in the game recap screen of the game they just played.

When Tiger told me you had changed the ranks file, my reaction was that you had acted irresponsibly. Personally I could not imagine what would make you think it was "ok" for you to change the rankings provided in the server package. I approached you via PM, asked you to change them and you said you were leaving them. ("That's the general idea, yes" is what you said.)

Please let me know when your server's been updated & reset.

Noir wrote:QUOTE (Noir @ Aug 3 2006, 06:20 PM) Pook, I DID change them back that VERY night. Usually the server/service resets on its own about once a day due to AllSrv lockups, but it would seem that the new code is more stable (crosses fingers on that). I'll manually reboot the server tonight when the players thin out for the evening, so keep your hat on.

But to be honest Pook, since the change, the response has been mostly positive. When I log on, I get more suggestions and it would seem that the majority of people online think it is even more accurate. Hell, I think I was reserved compared to some of the serious suggestions I have heard. I guess "we" are just not as accommodating as other games where almost total server customization is not only allowed, but encouraged. Meh, I should not be surprised.

linkie linkie


(edit -- yeah. that was a little big. fixed.)

(is the giant picture really necessary?)

but the big picture makes the point clearer