Although the corp is clearly pointing the finger at unions, its likely that mismanagement of the business contributed to the problem. The co makes @#(! food that is bad for you, and the US is on a health conscious kick, so I bet their market share has been dropping for a long time. The co probably didn't bother to diversify or expand into other markets, so they weren't making enough money to stay solvent.
Now I'm not saying the unions could have given some, but if what MrC says has any validity to it, it is likely that 1) the business wasn't making enough and 2) the employees were making too much so economically shutting down the business is the right decision.
I work with FedEx and UPS delivery people. These guys basically drive trucks and deliver packages all day. You would not believe how much they get paid. Now they typically work 50-60 hour weeks, and get overtime, so they do work hard. But it is crazy to me to see a delivery driver earning over $80,000 a year, plus the best in benefits (pensions, cadillac health care, annuities, etc). The only reason they get that much in pay and benefits is powerful unions. But hey, FedEx and UPS seem to be doing pretty ok, so it works.
RIP
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takingarms1
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takingarms1
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I'd turn down that kind of deal, too, but the real question is, what other job could you get that would get you similar pay? I've represented delivery drivers who earn around 30-40k a year and that seems too be the market average when unions aren't involved. If you have no college, and no skills other than driving, what kind of job can you expect to get that pays better than 40k?
"You give my regards to St. Peter. Or, whoever has his job, but in hell!"
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For starters I come from a family of union pipefitters. I grew up believing that union was the only way to go. My entire family votes straight ticket Democrat. I thought that was just the way things were supposed to be.... then I took Labor Economics in college and then all of the sudden nothing made sense. I was highly offended the first time the professor suggested that maybe everything union wasn't exactly the best scenario. But I watched the world, learned, then drew my own conclusions.
Unions as a whole used to be a wonderful enterprise. They had an excellent value proposition. In pipefitter land there were three essential parts to the value proposition. The first was that you had highly trained, skilled employees. It was like McDonald's for labor. You knew exactly what you were going to get regardless of where in the country you hired a union employee, and it was high quality work. The second value proposition was that the work would get done on time. With highly skilled employees operating as a machine you could accurately predict how long a project would take, thus making budgeting easier. The third value proposition was that the job would get done on or under budget, barring anything out of the ordinary.
That was then. Now, the pipefitters union is loaded with people who are hooked on one kind of drug or another. I know this, because like I said, my whole family is union. Their friends are union people. Its not just THOSE PEOPLE, my family has had its bouts with drug abuse as well. Guys are falling asleep on the job regularly and the employer can't fire them. They've ruined their value proposition by not being more strict about getting rid of the deadbeats within their ranks. They've also become to highly specialized, which is really code speak for LAZY. Nothing can get done on time and under budget when you literally pay someone to sit there and watch for fires all day... in a concrete building with nothing but... concrete. My brother got reprimanded on the job for getting his work done too quickly. Another buddy of mine from high school got chewed out for tightening a nut that was loose because that was another union trade's job to do. Its all gotten ridiculous. I have another brother that has been hooked on pills who has gotten in a fight on virtually every job he's ever been on and he's still on the union roll.
That's not to say they are all bad eggs. There are some hard working honest people, and it may even be the majority still. The fact that I'm not sure should tell you something. So in the case of Hostess, I have no idea if this type of mentality exists, but I've seen these problems in the auto industry, steelworkers, IBEW, SEIU, you name it.
At the end of the day I think right to work is a good thing. If you have a job somewhere and don't want to be in the union that should be your choice. You can negotiate your own wages just like other 88.2% of the work force. If you are an employer who can find people willing to work for less than union scale that should be your choice as well. Instead of forcing companies to pay what will ultimately put them out of business, unions should do a better job of demonstrating their value. They will be extinct if they continue down this path.
Unions as a whole used to be a wonderful enterprise. They had an excellent value proposition. In pipefitter land there were three essential parts to the value proposition. The first was that you had highly trained, skilled employees. It was like McDonald's for labor. You knew exactly what you were going to get regardless of where in the country you hired a union employee, and it was high quality work. The second value proposition was that the work would get done on time. With highly skilled employees operating as a machine you could accurately predict how long a project would take, thus making budgeting easier. The third value proposition was that the job would get done on or under budget, barring anything out of the ordinary.
That was then. Now, the pipefitters union is loaded with people who are hooked on one kind of drug or another. I know this, because like I said, my whole family is union. Their friends are union people. Its not just THOSE PEOPLE, my family has had its bouts with drug abuse as well. Guys are falling asleep on the job regularly and the employer can't fire them. They've ruined their value proposition by not being more strict about getting rid of the deadbeats within their ranks. They've also become to highly specialized, which is really code speak for LAZY. Nothing can get done on time and under budget when you literally pay someone to sit there and watch for fires all day... in a concrete building with nothing but... concrete. My brother got reprimanded on the job for getting his work done too quickly. Another buddy of mine from high school got chewed out for tightening a nut that was loose because that was another union trade's job to do. Its all gotten ridiculous. I have another brother that has been hooked on pills who has gotten in a fight on virtually every job he's ever been on and he's still on the union roll.
That's not to say they are all bad eggs. There are some hard working honest people, and it may even be the majority still. The fact that I'm not sure should tell you something. So in the case of Hostess, I have no idea if this type of mentality exists, but I've seen these problems in the auto industry, steelworkers, IBEW, SEIU, you name it.
At the end of the day I think right to work is a good thing. If you have a job somewhere and don't want to be in the union that should be your choice. You can negotiate your own wages just like other 88.2% of the work force. If you are an employer who can find people willing to work for less than union scale that should be your choice as well. Instead of forcing companies to pay what will ultimately put them out of business, unions should do a better job of demonstrating their value. They will be extinct if they continue down this path.
What Allegiance needs is a little more cowbell. 
Most of the Metz' are IBEW electricians. My dad, for instance, likes to not go to work at least one day a week because it's hard to get fired, and if he gets fired then he just he just goes back and signs the book again and keeps drawing unemployment. My family has been in the IBEW for a few generations, and are big pro-union folk, and this is what it's turned into.mcwarren4 wrote:QUOTE (mcwarren4 @ Jan 9 2013, 07:39 PM) That's not to say they are all bad eggs. There are some hard working honest people, and it may even be the majority still. The fact that I'm not sure should tell you something. So in the case of Hostess, I have no idea if this type of mentality exists, but I've seen these problems in the auto industry, steelworkers, IBEW, SEIU, you name it.
Personally I'd be stoked to be in a union (and may try for the IBEW myself), for all the benefits a union has to offer, though unions in general do not serve as much a practical purpose as they used to.
Last edited by Mastametz on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's a new sheriff in town.
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Archangelus
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takingarms1
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a lot of unions only exist because the government essentially subsidizes their existence. In the case of construction unions, they only really work on government funded projects because any private entity that has a choice about it is going to go non-union, because it is so damned much cheaper. But when it comes to government funded projects, the government usually mandates union workers - and as a result, those unions have tremendous power to dictate the terms.mcwarren4 wrote:QUOTE (mcwarren4 @ Jan 9 2013, 10:39 PM) Instead of forcing companies to pay what will ultimately put them out of business, unions should do a better job of demonstrating their value. They will be extinct if they continue down this path.
But in the case of fedex and ups, those unions negotiate in a much more free market type of scenario. They know that if they insist on too much, the company will fold and everyone loses. In those companies, there are very few bad eggs, because those companies are hardass and don't tolerate it. And when you have no more than a high school education, and you work delivering packages, and you make a damn good wage, what the hell do you want to go on strike for? For most of those guys, it's the best job they will ever have.
So it all depends. I'm fairly pro-union, particularly in the fedex/ups type of set up. Construction unions are a bit outrageous though. In hostess case, i suspect that they were on the way to bankruptcy regardless of union influence, but the union probably hastened their demise.
"You give my regards to St. Peter. Or, whoever has his job, but in hell!"
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There's one more item I forgot to mention. Metz, if you do go for ibew, and your chapter is anything like what my in laws have had experiance with (teamsters/pipefitters/masons) you might yourself highly motivated at first to prove yourself only to have that productivity eroded away by watching other people get raises based on seniority instead of performance. Hell, even my my mom, a 30+ year retired police sergeant used to complain about the unqualified doorknobs who made detective, just cuz they managed to hang around long enough. It makes people not work, which is just sad.
I've never even been in a union and I've dealt with that at every job I've ever had. There is favoritism anywhere you go.BackTrak wrote:QUOTE (BackTrak @ Jan 9 2013, 09:33 PM) There's one more item I forgot to mention. Metz, if you do go for ibew, and your chapter is anything like what my in laws have had experiance with (teamsters/pipefitters/masons) you might yourself highly motivated at first to prove yourself only to have that productivity eroded away by watching other people get raises based on seniority instead of performance. Hell, even my my mom, a 30+ year retired police sergeant used to complain about the unqualified doorknobs who made detective, just cuz they managed to hang around long enough. It makes people not work, which is just sad.
There's a new sheriff in town.