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pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Nov 26 2010, 09:46 AM) Ask Noir... He played around with Hvy Pods till DN 00.02.10.

Is there a full DN change log anywhere? My search-fu is failing me and the wiki is no good.

perk heavy scouts

1) Your analysis seems to point towards IC being OP (and therefore the de facto choice for the majority of SGs) rather than Rix being borked. I personally find that Rix is more balanced than the other 'no missile' faction - TF

2) There are several factions that are not really viable for evenly matched SGs for various reasons. As I understand it, that is why the community core balances for PUGs.

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Nov 26 2010, 09:12 AM) Is there a full DN change log anywhere? My search-fu is failing me and the wiki is no good.

noir maintained an extensive changelog for DN on his personal DN website - which has long since vanished from the internets. all that really remains in that regard is my personal recollection of many balance-related conversations i had with Noir over the years. most of those issues like random tweaks, like those to heavy combat drones for example, i know nothing about.

SouthPaw wrote:QUOTE (SouthPaw @ Nov 26 2010, 09:37 AM) 1) Your analysis seems to point towards IC being OP (and therefore the de facto choice for the majority of SGs) rather than Rix being borked. I personally find that Rix is more balanced than the other 'no missile' faction - TF

2) There are several factions that are not really viable for evenly matched SGs for various reasons. As I understand it, that is why the community core balances for PUGs.

see my post in the other thread dorjan started - i wrote up a comprehensive analysis of the current factions in terms of competitive play. and, again, i don't think balancing a core for pugs and using that core for higher levels of play is a good thing. issues in play that stem from incompetence can often be misconceived as issues in the balance of the game, and balance issues (for example, one faction being obviously more powerful than another, dreg vs rix for example) can be very easily concealed by incompetence. creating a seperate core that strives for a higher level of balance causes many problems, most of which is time involved in development, and doesn't paint a very pretty picture to the masses and sends a message of "you aren't good enough so here's this piece of @#(! core that we don't really care about balancing much."

perhaps the paradigm of community core itself should be changed - strive for a higher level of balance such that all nine existing factions are competitive with one another in high level squad games, and this will perhaps spawn much more diversity of factions in pug games and perhaps even improve the average person's quality and level of gameplay, and maybe even influence higher levels of play. unfortunately, balancing in this manner - based on squadgames - is difficult because of the much smaller relative data sample given how SGs are played infrequently compared to pugs, but i think there are solutions to this problem as well (which should be pursued regardless!), which involves simply playing more games at a higher level.

Thanks for your input night. I did mention many times I feel Rix is balanced but compared to the bigger factions it lacks. With the way this community treats "nerf" threads I thought I would bring rix UP instead of the others DOWN.

I do agree that the others should be tonned down as Rixian is the best balanced faction imo

NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Nov 26 2010, 11:03 AM) perhaps the paradigm of community core itself should be changed - strive for a higher level of balance such that all nine existing factions are competitive with one another in high level squad games, and this will perhaps spawn much more diversity of factions in pug games and perhaps even improve the average person's quality and level of gameplay, and maybe even influence higher levels of play. unfortunately, balancing in this manner - based on squadgames - is difficult because of the much smaller relative data sample given how SGs are played infrequently compared to pugs, but i think there are solutions to this problem as well (which should be pursued regardless!), which involves simply playing more games at a higher level.

QFT.

It is MUCH easier to balance for squad games, as long as squads are willing to give each re-balanced faction a chance. The quality of feedback will be higher. You don't need to subjectively compensate for "voobishness". And I don't think the lack of data points is a problem anway - currently, PUG win/loss stats cannot be used for fine-tuning as there are too many variables to count (resource/money settings, commander quality, overall stack, map, opening tech path choices, rock distribution) that you can only make a call when a faction is getting completely destroyed.

Toning down and and balancing factions (and techs) so that more of them are viable SG choises is an excellent overall plan. And yes, Rix shouldn't need a perk. It's things like TF that badly need a nerf.

Though I still don't like the separate SR scout. No need for it if you need to go sup to get figs that can rip to one (thanks for reminding me pkk).

Imho ic vs rix Exp vs exp is funny and sup vs sup is a cripple fight.

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Nov 26 2010, 10:09 AM) For SRs, just get rid of them - there is no need to have a separate scout. All that's needed is a very low energy recharge for the scout and a huge sig charging device mounted in the cloak slot. The recharge rate for the charging device can be adjusted independently of everything so it won't affect any other aspect of the game. Scouts will light up like a christmas tree after the first rip but can still rip in figs and other scouts at a respectable rate.

I've always wanted to see the return of every-rix-scout-is-a-teleport. Spunky's recharge device seems like a good compromise to the complaints raised in the past.

Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Nov 26 2010, 10:21 AM) It would also give them infinite nannage once they were eyed, right?

Not necessarily, if I understand correctly, the total regen of the scout + inverter would probably be somewhere in the range of current scouts/SR's. So you could still be just as likely to "bottom-out" during a long bomb run.

It will take some testing to get in properly balanced, but it seems like a much better and scaleable solution than the current SR scouts.

Adaven wrote:QUOTE (Adaven @ Nov 26 2010, 01:09 PM) Not necessarily, if I understand correctly, the total regen of the scout + inverter would probably be somewhere in the range of current scouts/SR's. So you could still be just as likely to "bottom-out" during a long bomb run.

It will take some testing to get in properly balanced, but it seems like a much better and scaleable solution than the current SR scouts.

I just looked at Plus, and a Rix scout recharges at 10 while the charger adds 50 so the total is 60, just like any other scout. So no, it doesn't affect nanning after all. I seem to recall it was increased to make rip costs compatible with ASS but guess not. (or maybe Fox changed it later)

You can see it for yourself.. start a single team plus game on GPZ and take a Rix scout out for a spin.