Of course Tac has a compelling reason to buy adv scouts! Scouts can probe and they can lurk in the enemy's home to watch cons and miners, things that are useful for any techpath, and why the hell would I do those things with 75% sig when I could do them with 50% sig? I can't think of any techpath for which "seeing stuff, especially stuff that doesn't want to be seen" isn't useful, and "seeing stuff while not being seen yourself" is always a useful addition.
There's no reason for a commander to buy adv scouts, sure, but that's because adv scouts aren't enough of a boost over basic scouts to be worth the 17k, and hvy scouts are so expensive that the 27k pricetag is only barely worth the boosts they give. Comms don't feel that adv scouts improve the "probing and scouting and nanning" parts of a scout's job enough to be worth the substantial cost when there's techpath tech to buy, so the garr upgrade and adv scouts are pretty much always the first purchase AFTER someone's already bought every useful thing their techpath offers and still has money to spare (and hvy bbrs and scouts usually come next if cash-flow allows).
I'm a little confused here, too...are you saying that AFTER spending the absolute minimum amount necessary to get tp2 and figbees with cruise booster (a whopping 127500 credits according to TEK, subtract 10k if you don't care about cruise booster, subtract 5k if IC), that adv scouts are too cheap even if used only as an extra minor enhancement to sup's endgame? For side reference, Tac and Exp both cost around 70k for endgame tech only, and SY with super hvy class typically costs about the same amount as sup's endgame does. Yet people still whine nonstop about tp2 being broken, just like how people complain all the time about Bios. Clearly just making the total cost higher isn't enough to shut people up.
So yes, nerf the damn tp2 down. And yes, it's possible. I can open ICE and see what can and cannot be changed in the core. You can change the probe's cost, you can change the probe's activation time, you can change its lifetime (currently a whopping 60sec), you can change its cargo size and the size of the probe itself, you can change its hitpoints, you can change its mass, and many more things besides. Make every individual tp2 cost 5k and double its mass, and maybe then see how overpowered they are. Sure, that probably won't shut people up either, but it beats nerfing the scout upgrades as a way to indirectly nerf sup.
Though to be honest, I don't really think tp2's overpowered - sure, it's easy to use, powerful, and very hard to defend against, but so is every other techpath's endgame (except Exp's). When people get rolled over by battleships and then come whining about super hvy class being overpowered, they're told that it's their own damn fault for letting their foe mine all the way to super heavy class; when people get rolled over by a tp2 run, it's taken as self-evident that tp2 needs to be nerfed, despite being just as expensive and easier to defend against (I've played in pugs where one side turtled for an hour or more against a sup team with tp2 before constant aleph ressing and launching every sup endgame tactic at once in a coordinated manner finally ended it).
Adjusting Adv Scouts
Moving AdvScouts to regular Garrison is a bad idea. It would be to easy to get access to the cheapest ship with highest scanrange (only AttackCarriers and AssaultShip have 20% more scanrange).
If you don't like current HvyScout concept, just play a game on Alleg+, where HvyScouts don't replace AdvScouts...
If you don't like current HvyScout concept, just play a game on Alleg+, where HvyScouts don't replace AdvScouts...
The Escapist (Justin Emerson) @ Dec 21 2010, 02:33 PM:
The history of open-source Allegiance is paved with the bodies of dead code branches, forum flame wars, and personal vendettas. But a community remains because people still love the game.
Wouldn't moving adv scouts to garr neuter tac (which is already the least played tech path) even more?
I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.
My apologies.
Actually suggestion to increase mass of the tp2 is the most applicable to nerf the ability to deploy the tp2.
If a single tp2 will cause the scout to handle like a freighter, no matter if it is adv of hvy, you will nerf the ability of the player to effectively deploy tp2, at the same time you do not nerf the actual scouts themselves.
Problem : advscouts make it simple to make tp2 drops.
Solution N1 : nerf advscouts sig and speed
Solution N2 : add mass to tp2 to effectively nerf the acceleration and agility of the adv scout that IS carrying the tp2.
IMO, N2 is more specific compared to N1, in the aspect of nerfing the ability to do tp2 drops, and not nerfing any other aspects of the game.
Or, if you are not happy about that, make a TP2 scout (same as NG sbs) with whichever stats you prefer. Advscouts are not broken.
If a single tp2 will cause the scout to handle like a freighter, no matter if it is adv of hvy, you will nerf the ability of the player to effectively deploy tp2, at the same time you do not nerf the actual scouts themselves.
Problem : advscouts make it simple to make tp2 drops.
Solution N1 : nerf advscouts sig and speed
Solution N2 : add mass to tp2 to effectively nerf the acceleration and agility of the adv scout that IS carrying the tp2.
IMO, N2 is more specific compared to N1, in the aspect of nerfing the ability to do tp2 drops, and not nerfing any other aspects of the game.
Or, if you are not happy about that, make a TP2 scout (same as NG sbs) with whichever stats you prefer. Advscouts are not broken.
Last edited by theTroy on Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you parci
This is why I said "also nerf them"...pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Feb 16 2010, 04:46 PM) Moving AdvScouts to regular Garrison is a bad idea. It would be to easy to get access to the cheapest ship with highest scanrange (only AttackCarriers and AssaultShip have 20% more scanrange).
spideycw - 'This is because Grav is a huge whining bitch. But we all knew that already' Dec 19 2010, 07:36 PM
The 'massive' upgrade from basic to adv. scouts is due to their location in starbase. It takes a considerable investment of time and money to get them and I'm not yet convinced this needs to change.
Making an enh. scout in garrison also sounds like a bad idea. At that point I feel the upgrade would be too expensive and a time sink on the way to adv. scouts, though it could be an option if we needed to nerf the speed Bios gets adv scouts out. I say expensive because if we made them too cheap, then just about every team would get them and it'd be a moderate nerf to tac because of the increased scan that I imagine enh. scouts would have. Trying to balance the cost and stats on these so that they are more than just a stepping stone but expensive enough not to be overpowered seems like an unnecessary hassle.
Making an enh. scout in garrison also sounds like a bad idea. At that point I feel the upgrade would be too expensive and a time sink on the way to adv. scouts, though it could be an option if we needed to nerf the speed Bios gets adv scouts out. I say expensive because if we made them too cheap, then just about every team would get them and it'd be a moderate nerf to tac because of the increased scan that I imagine enh. scouts would have. Trying to balance the cost and stats on these so that they are more than just a stepping stone but expensive enough not to be overpowered seems like an unnecessary hassle.
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Clay_Pigeon
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hmm maybe enh scouts will do good, it could be a small improvement over reg scouts. It would do good nerfing BIOS and Rix Hvy Scouts. And there are not too many people piloting scouts all the time and they are not as deadly as HvyInts or AdvFigs.Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ Feb 17 2010, 09:12 PM) The 'massive' upgrade from basic to adv. scouts is due to their location in starbase. It takes a considerable investment of time and money to get them and I'm not yet convinced this needs to change.
Making an enh. scout in garrison also sounds like a bad idea. At that point I feel the upgrade would be too expensive and a time sink on the way to adv. scouts, though it could be an option if we needed to nerf the speed Bios gets adv scouts out. I say expensive because if we made them too cheap, then just about every team would get them and it'd be a moderate nerf to tac because of the increased scan that I imagine enh. scouts would have. Trying to balance the cost and stats on these so that they are more than just a stepping stone but expensive enough not to be overpowered seems like an unnecessary hassle.
So just let people fly better scouts and everyone will be happy
Last edited by Solamnus on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
<Gandalf> RT are the gentlemen of this game