Discussion of IC Changes

[spideycw]

Okay a few points for IC:

First off removing ripping miners is something I would want to stay away from for a few reasons
a) it is unique
b) its a lot of work - we would be looking at reworking miner speed, yield, time at rock, maybe even if they can unload at tech bases, etc to accommodate this because frankly non-ripping IC econ would suck (no refs you see!)

Increase Tech Base/Op/TP cost
a) IC econ has great mobility but I don't think it is flexible enough to bump up all 3 of these? Maybe bump up a tech base cost as Brood suggest - but that would set back IC more than I feel is feasible early game
b) another option we could do is increase the Tech Base upgrade cost

My personal suggestions:
a) Bump up the IC miner Ripcord time. This will have the affect of slowing up their rip time AND making their economy a bit more fragile. Personally I really like this idea because I think an alert commander will rip his miners early where as a commander who sucks will no longer be saved because the miner manages to rip out before a scout can kill it because he wasn't paying attention. I think +5-10 seconds is best.

b) Make enh con research time longer - no enh cons unless you redock them for the first wave

c) Increase Op/TP con build times. I like this idea as well because it means IC will have to rely on their lt ints more to push their cons where they want them to go. Since IC is brute force I think that fits in well with pushing your con anywhere you want no matter the time period This will lead to a higher quality of pickuup games imo as ints will be FORCED to fly to the direction the con is going ahead of time. My suggestions is maybe +30 seconds to start but I will have to do some experimentation later to see exactly how this will work out.


I would rank my ideas A -> C -> B

[Dorjan]

Well you know best with RC times so i'll leave that to you.

For me, increasing ALL their cons by just 10% will make them feel that bit better as atm their costs are the same as rix (as is yield) but they get a hvy base out of it...

Maybe increase research time as a whole for IC. Protect that tech base while it's upping or else. Enh cons can't be brought with opening cons unless you delay them etc

[Raveen]

I believe, and I'm not sure at all, that there's a upper limit to rip time. Either it's a limit in the engine or a limit in the AI (Hmm, I started ripping but nothing's happened yet, I ought to start the sequance again).

[zombywoof]

I like increasing the cost to upgrade IC exp to advanced exp. $1 techtime ints screams "we couldn't think of anything better."

As for increasing the op/tele cost, isn't Giga's deal that their bases are light bases, therefore cheaper? It seems to me that IC's bases should be more expensive if they are heavier... not by much though. How much of an effect do you think adding +20% to the cost of IC's non-tech cons would have? Ops become 6k, teles become 3600.

I suppose an equal option would be to simply take IC on lower money settings...

[HSharp]

Adding a $1 price for 2min research for IC ships will slow IC by a lot, IC techbases take twice as long to come out then any other faction and this is offset by them getting the ships asap, then for IC to up thier techbase it takes 4minutes while the standard is 2mins, and you want to add another 2 mins research to that?

[Sealer]

I think one of the important perks of IC that makes playing against such a challenge is how easy (and cheap) they can get their enh ships up allowing them to buy some tech/another small base early, combined with that it's fairly easy to defend their ripping miners. I think that's one of the main reasons sup is much less effective against IC exp - it's hard to hit miners with slow, loud boost 2 enh figs, and it's easy to kill them with IC interceptors, so there's not much you can do to stop them from getting adv tech up. If you have to concentrate on offense a lot, your miners will probably die, as IC with their strong ships are good at both offense and defense. On top of that they have ungalvable bases which makes a vital map controlling tech completely worthless. As HSharp said, they also have 1.0 He Yield, which isn't all that bad.

It's worth noting, that most of the above points are related to superior IC exp vs Sup - the fact that Sup has to pay so much for the useful tech, to make their figs competive with IC ints, and that IC exp doesn't have to pay much to get probably the best interceptors in game. Other techpaths, although still strong, don't feel unbalanced. I don't think we should nerf interceptors, and I don't think that sig nerf would help a lot.

I'd love to see IC tech base cost raised a bit (12.500 like dreg for example), but more importantly, make them pay and wait for their adv ships. As it is now, although they cost more, adv techbase gives you cheaper, and faster adv ship research, which is really a strong point.

Here comes the numbers:

IC exp needs to pay 10k for both techbase, and enh ships. 4 min build time only offsets the time to research enh ships.

They need 30k and 2 minutes to upgrade their techbase and get adv ships. The only tech they need to become competive is mini 2 which adds 5k to the pull. 45k for the best interceptors in game.


Here's a matchup which I think is completely outrageous - the other extreme.

Dreg exp needs 12.5k to get adv tech base, and 9.5k to get enh ships. The 1 minute shorter research time is more than offset by a sum of 22k to get enh ships. That's 12k more than IC has to pay, and dreg interceptors are probably some of the worse interceptors in game, standing right above giga and belters.

They need 31.250 to get adv exp and another 12.5k to get heavy interceptors. That adds a whooping amount of 43.750, making a total of 65.750 cr for dreg heavy interceptors, which are hardly the strongest ones of the bunch. +6k for mini 2.

Of course dreg exp is not the strongest tech path in the world, however their strong side, sup, needs to pay much more to become competive. Ss2, Df2, Mp, Gat2 and boost 2 give slightly more than 15k for enh tech. I didn't check the numbers but 3rd tier will probably cost over 10k too. Add the fact that it's hard to stop IC from mining with figs, and it will be hard to mine vs heavy ints, AND they have ungalvable bases...

I agree that dreg is not the strongest faction in there, but it shows very well how huge is the gap between IC and some factions.


The only faction that is competive vs IC exp in terms of ships and economy would be rix. Rix exp that is:

10k for techbase, 7.5k for ints.
25k for techbase, 10k for heavy ints.
5k for mini 2.

57.5k for it all, only 12.5k more than IC. With good miner d and 12sec research time they stand a chance to get heavy ints before IC. But they are probably the only faction that has ints comparable in power with IC.

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In conclusion I see absolutely no reason for IC to have their strongest techpath (and one of the best in game) cost so little money, and be so easily and fast available. I'd love to see one or more of these changes:

- less yield for IC
- increased cost/time of them getting adv ships
- increased cost of them getting enh ships
- galvable (although much stronger) small bases
- maybe increased research time?

[pkk]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Apr 30 2009, 07:48 PM) then for IC to up thier techbase it takes 4minutes while the standard is 2mins

IC need 3 mins (180 secs) to upgrade a techbase.

[Sealer]

QUOTE (Sealer @ Apr 30 2009, 08:00 PM) If that's correct, Wikify it.

[TheBored]

QUOTE (Raveen @ Apr 30 2009, 01:09 PM) I believe, and I'm not sure at all, that there's a upper limit to rip time. Either it's a limit in the engine or a limit in the AI (Hmm, I started ripping but nothing's happened yet, I ought to start the sequance again).

This is correct. The exact value evades me... 25 seconds (ish)?

TB

[spideycw]

IC rip time is 30 seconds