Come up with a way to allow ELO slack relative to the number of players and total ELO in game.
Come up with a max possible ELO imbalance % (70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95) that would also allow for more random ELO team balance at start, but not the excessive bull @#(! that I even stay out of.
This fixes Shiz's problem, this fixes my problem.
<rant>
And for all you $#@!ing retreads who bitch about ELO.
ELO cannot start collecting valid data if there is not a limit to PU game stacking,
my leader board ranking proves this.
Read it,
Understand it,
and
Shut, The, $#@!, Up.
</rant>
Beta testing and balance
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Rand0m_Numb3r
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:00 am
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Last edited by Rand0m_Numb3r on Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Beyond the clock tower.
In theory, if this gets working properly, it should allow 4 vets to take on 10 average players and still have a decent game. It just prevents 9 vets from whoring on 10 average players.
Shiz is just the vet that spoke up on this, so I keep using his name.
But Shiz? wouldn't you and 3 fellow vets have a lot of fun going after 10 players?
That theorhetically could be done now by turning off max imbalance players, but without a balance enforcement it would get very stacked very quickly.
And yes, if you were late in joining your friends in said game, you would be blocked from joining them. That is sort of the whole point. Get three newbs to join the other side and then you can join the other vets.
Shiz is just the vet that spoke up on this, so I keep using his name.
But Shiz? wouldn't you and 3 fellow vets have a lot of fun going after 10 players?
That theorhetically could be done now by turning off max imbalance players, but without a balance enforcement it would get very stacked very quickly.
And yes, if you were late in joining your friends in said game, you would be blocked from joining them. That is sort of the whole point. Get three newbs to join the other side and then you can join the other vets.
DOG PROPERTY LAWS:
2. If it's in my mouth, it's mine.
[unless it tastes bad, then it is yours.]
Shiz I completely understand the way you feel and see things. You and the people you like to play with invested too much effort to excel. When something wrong happens in game you want your teammates to react accordingly. You strive for perfection. When people are too lazy to simply read the chat you get frustrated and your gaming experience is simply ruined. You have every right to feel this way.
The problem is that you do not consider how other members of the community feel about the situation. Many new to the game are so frustrated with the information bombardment that they simply cannot keep up, not even with chat. They are not lazy, they just need time. If all of their early games are a bunch of super looses, with no sign that this will ever change, they do not have fun at all; they leave.
Also consider this: If a bunch of super-players ALWAYS ally and pawn anyone else who in this world would like to play against them? Who would have fun to participate in a game with predetermined result?
You mention other games and their reward system. The problem with Allegiance is that it is NOT just like any other game. It is so difficult to comprehend that you need (as you also mention) at least a year of hard gaming, just to get the feeling of it. If you add to this a harsh learning environment or/and no-fun-at-all-you-always-loose, people will simply not stick around enough to appreciate and learn it.
Your misunderstanding is that ELO is a reward system and it should work as one. It’s not. It’s a tool. For what? For helping new players to work their way on becoming better. How? By FORCING good capable players to team-up with them. This way they get a fighting chance AND if they are good enough and listen, to learn from the best. Given the time they might surpass their teachers (as you probably did).
And here I come to the painful part. The FORCING. It is bad when people are forced to do things they don’t like. You thing “Why do I have to play with NewbieNotListening on my team when I can team up with mighty Weed and have fun?”
Because currently we are a very small community. There are only just a handful of super-players. Can you have games with just them? No, they aren’t all of them constantly around. How do we solve this? E.g. squad games=No-AutoBalance=Your-wish-is-granted, you fly with your mates, you pawn, you have fun. But SG happen only once a week. Can we have games like that during regular PU? How? There is only one answer to that: get a larger better community. Given the time, we could have always around 5 Weeds, 5 Shiz, 5 Ozs, etc that are enough to go to the Vet-server and have a super quality game against each other.
Until then be patient and play with all of us, not Vs all of us.
The problem is that you do not consider how other members of the community feel about the situation. Many new to the game are so frustrated with the information bombardment that they simply cannot keep up, not even with chat. They are not lazy, they just need time. If all of their early games are a bunch of super looses, with no sign that this will ever change, they do not have fun at all; they leave.
Also consider this: If a bunch of super-players ALWAYS ally and pawn anyone else who in this world would like to play against them? Who would have fun to participate in a game with predetermined result?
You mention other games and their reward system. The problem with Allegiance is that it is NOT just like any other game. It is so difficult to comprehend that you need (as you also mention) at least a year of hard gaming, just to get the feeling of it. If you add to this a harsh learning environment or/and no-fun-at-all-you-always-loose, people will simply not stick around enough to appreciate and learn it.
Your misunderstanding is that ELO is a reward system and it should work as one. It’s not. It’s a tool. For what? For helping new players to work their way on becoming better. How? By FORCING good capable players to team-up with them. This way they get a fighting chance AND if they are good enough and listen, to learn from the best. Given the time they might surpass their teachers (as you probably did).
And here I come to the painful part. The FORCING. It is bad when people are forced to do things they don’t like. You thing “Why do I have to play with NewbieNotListening on my team when I can team up with mighty Weed and have fun?”
Because currently we are a very small community. There are only just a handful of super-players. Can you have games with just them? No, they aren’t all of them constantly around. How do we solve this? E.g. squad games=No-AutoBalance=Your-wish-is-granted, you fly with your mates, you pawn, you have fun. But SG happen only once a week. Can we have games like that during regular PU? How? There is only one answer to that: get a larger better community. Given the time, we could have always around 5 Weeds, 5 Shiz, 5 Ozs, etc that are enough to go to the Vet-server and have a super quality game against each other.
Until then be patient and play with all of us, not Vs all of us.
Last edited by parcival on Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" There is good in everyone. You just need the eyes for it. "
Why stop imbalance at 2?
Just set it to N/A exclusively whenever autobalancing is running.
Also I learn just as much by flying against someone than I do by flying for them.
Just set it to N/A exclusively whenever autobalancing is running.
Also I learn just as much by flying against someone than I do by flying for them.
Last edited by Aoreias on Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No, pants are still optional. But for you, recommended.
--Aoreias (Gap_Dragon/Gappy)
--Aoreias (Gap_Dragon/Gappy)
To answer the question about enforced balance eventually causing everyone's ELO to converge on 1500. Yes, that's true, it could. But, it's not the issue that people think it is.
ELO is a relative measure of skill, and there are two possible outcomes of forced balancing.
1) Even the suckiest player learns to play like a pro, in which case the ELO converges for everyone. It doesn't mean that all of a sudden Weed and the other 30's started sucking. It means that everyone else go so good that no one is really better than anyone else. If everyone is godlike in the game, then everyone's relative skill is exactly in the middle, the middle being 1500. Doesn't mean we're all mediocre, it means any player has a 50/50 chance of beating any other player, which is true.
However, the far more likely scenario is this:
Some people will never understand this game, or will never play enough to become godlike, or groups of players will be unable to function as a unit. These people will lose, the players who are able to consistantly rally their teammates to victory will win. You will see the scores diverge from 1500, but there will be few, if any 30's, and few, if any 0's. You will see most people hover around 1300 to 1700, with the exceptionally good and bad outside that range.
It's called a gaussian distribution, and it has nothing to do with an absolute rank. If you wanted to infer rank from this system, you have to work out the mean and std dev of the whole population. and express the rank as the difference in probablity of victory. This ends up meaning that one month a 1600 player could be twice as good as a 1500 player. And next month a 1600 player could be 10 times better than a 1500.
I think this is what's at the core of the ELO issue. People are treating it like a leaderboard, which it is not. People get insulted when they see that ELO ranks them at 1600 when they used to be 2100. Except that the absolute value of your ELO score is meaningless. It only has meaning relative to the mean and std dev of the the Allegiance player base.
To that end, we do need a leaderboard system for bragging rights. But the ELO implementation, for the sake of trying to keep games balanced, is a welcome addition to Allegiance.
ELO is a relative measure of skill, and there are two possible outcomes of forced balancing.
1) Even the suckiest player learns to play like a pro, in which case the ELO converges for everyone. It doesn't mean that all of a sudden Weed and the other 30's started sucking. It means that everyone else go so good that no one is really better than anyone else. If everyone is godlike in the game, then everyone's relative skill is exactly in the middle, the middle being 1500. Doesn't mean we're all mediocre, it means any player has a 50/50 chance of beating any other player, which is true.
However, the far more likely scenario is this:
Some people will never understand this game, or will never play enough to become godlike, or groups of players will be unable to function as a unit. These people will lose, the players who are able to consistantly rally their teammates to victory will win. You will see the scores diverge from 1500, but there will be few, if any 30's, and few, if any 0's. You will see most people hover around 1300 to 1700, with the exceptionally good and bad outside that range.
It's called a gaussian distribution, and it has nothing to do with an absolute rank. If you wanted to infer rank from this system, you have to work out the mean and std dev of the whole population. and express the rank as the difference in probablity of victory. This ends up meaning that one month a 1600 player could be twice as good as a 1500 player. And next month a 1600 player could be 10 times better than a 1500.
I think this is what's at the core of the ELO issue. People are treating it like a leaderboard, which it is not. People get insulted when they see that ELO ranks them at 1600 when they used to be 2100. Except that the absolute value of your ELO score is meaningless. It only has meaning relative to the mean and std dev of the the Allegiance player base.
To that end, we do need a leaderboard system for bragging rights. But the ELO implementation, for the sake of trying to keep games balanced, is a welcome addition to Allegiance.
"I make it a point not to chat with AP off... space is vast, but it's never vast enough for my scout."
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Greator_SST
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:00 am
Dogbones wrote:QUOTE (Dogbones @ Oct 19 2006, 04:12 PM) In theory, if this gets working properly, it should allow 4 vets to take on 10 average players and still have a decent game. It just prevents 9 vets from whoring on 10 average players.
...this is the way I assumed it was going to work. I hope that is still the intent.Aoreias wrote:QUOTE (Aoreias @ Oct 19 2006, 04:27 PM) Why stop imbalance at 2?
Just set it to N/A exclusively whenever autobalancing is running.
...yea
QUOTE This is something the community NEEDS to try though. We need to give this a run and see how it works. None of us like having to sit for 15-20 min waiting for a game to start. This could drop that down to 5 min or less once more comms start stepping up.[/quote]
The fact here is that those new commanders are still going to need HELP FROM THEIR PEERS.
While you are all spending time addressing the issue of numbers, you are ignoring the fact that as a community we are failing at teaching these newbies anything more than what they learn in cadet!
I have seen several Allegiance players who are in squads try and command. Watching them command it becomes immediately apparent that they have never commanded before. These "newbie" commanders even have their own squadmates on their team! But somehow they still make these huge errors in judgement...
Do squads train their cadets after they join? I know my squad does.
The reason I ask this is because I believe that the learning process follows this path.
Self-Cadet-Squad-Community
Self is #1. Cadet program is there for those who wish to help themselves. Joining a squad is a reward for showing that you wish to learn more... Assuming that after cadet graduation there is a learning period within the squad? If the squads officers or long time members are not teaching what they know or offering guidance then they are failing as a squad to provide a healthy learning environment. Any kind of learning after this is pretty much up to the individual players ego. (assuming their squad teaches them anything)
If you see one of your squadmates trying to command a game, please try to help them by giving them advice! Silence does not teach anyone anything!
Green Commanders need to be TAUGHT HOW TO COMMAND!
The balance button will not make newbie commanders better.
So, the whole point of joining a Squad is to pool together Knowledge so we might Share and Learn MORE together as a COMMUNITY!
I challenge all squads to be more aggressive in teaching your cadets and even your vets further. Share your knowledge and work together as a TEAM to create a better community!
The fact here is that those new commanders are still going to need HELP FROM THEIR PEERS.
While you are all spending time addressing the issue of numbers, you are ignoring the fact that as a community we are failing at teaching these newbies anything more than what they learn in cadet!
I have seen several Allegiance players who are in squads try and command. Watching them command it becomes immediately apparent that they have never commanded before. These "newbie" commanders even have their own squadmates on their team! But somehow they still make these huge errors in judgement...
Do squads train their cadets after they join? I know my squad does.
The reason I ask this is because I believe that the learning process follows this path.
Self-Cadet-Squad-Community
Self is #1. Cadet program is there for those who wish to help themselves. Joining a squad is a reward for showing that you wish to learn more... Assuming that after cadet graduation there is a learning period within the squad? If the squads officers or long time members are not teaching what they know or offering guidance then they are failing as a squad to provide a healthy learning environment. Any kind of learning after this is pretty much up to the individual players ego. (assuming their squad teaches them anything)
If you see one of your squadmates trying to command a game, please try to help them by giving them advice! Silence does not teach anyone anything!
Green Commanders need to be TAUGHT HOW TO COMMAND!
The balance button will not make newbie commanders better.
So, the whole point of joining a Squad is to pool together Knowledge so we might Share and Learn MORE together as a COMMUNITY!
I challenge all squads to be more aggressive in teaching your cadets and even your vets further. Share your knowledge and work together as a TEAM to create a better community!
Last edited by Ozricosis on Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Flying for clueless commanders is painfull.
Teaching new commanders is pointless because they fail to learn from their errors and continue to make the same mistake.
This system will force me to fly for shiny or sit out unless I luck out and get put on the opposition.
Flying for people like shiny is painfull, annoying, frustrating, ext.
I don't plan on playing for people who cause me such frustration.
The current system is completely blind to the most important equation in stacking, uneven commanders. I don't even know why you guys have spent so much time trying to get ELO to work because it will never accuratly depict someone's skill or a commanders skill.
I'm done replying to people about this subject. The carebear mentallity controls the community, that's fine for the carebears and those who go along with it. I'm tired of it, and I want my old alleg back. But that's not going to happen, so I'm going to take someone's advice.
QUOTE If you don't like it, leave[/quote]
It's quite apparent that nothing I do or say will change your minds to see what this useless system really is. So I will take that wise gentlemans advice, and be off once this comes out.
Teaching new commanders is pointless because they fail to learn from their errors and continue to make the same mistake.
This system will force me to fly for shiny or sit out unless I luck out and get put on the opposition.
Flying for people like shiny is painfull, annoying, frustrating, ext.
I don't plan on playing for people who cause me such frustration.
The current system is completely blind to the most important equation in stacking, uneven commanders. I don't even know why you guys have spent so much time trying to get ELO to work because it will never accuratly depict someone's skill or a commanders skill.
I'm done replying to people about this subject. The carebear mentallity controls the community, that's fine for the carebears and those who go along with it. I'm tired of it, and I want my old alleg back. But that's not going to happen, so I'm going to take someone's advice.
QUOTE If you don't like it, leave[/quote]
It's quite apparent that nothing I do or say will change your minds to see what this useless system really is. So I will take that wise gentlemans advice, and be off once this comes out.
Last edited by Shizoku on Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grimmwolf_GB
- Posts: 3711
- Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:00 am
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
I suggest that you at least give it a try for a while.
Last edited by Grimmwolf_GB on Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.